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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 13:30 gyda’r Llywydd (y Fonesig Rosemary Butler) yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Presiding Officer (Dame Rosemary Butler) in the Chair.
 
13:29
Y Llywydd / The Presiding OfficerBywgraffiadBiography
Good afternoon. The National Assembly for Wales is now in session.
Prynhawn da. Dyma ddechrau trafodion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.
 
13:29
1. Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog
1. Questions to the First Minister
Y Llywydd / The Presiding OfficerBywgraffiadBiography
The first item this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and question 1 is from Bethan Jenkins.
Cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog yw'r eitem gyntaf y prynhawn yma, a daw cwestiwn 1 gan Bethan Jenkins.
 
Adfer Safleoedd Glo Brig
Restoring Opencast Sites
 
13:29
Bethan JenkinsBywgraffiadBiography
1. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am adroddiad Llywodraeth Cymru ar adfer safleoedd glo brig yng Nghymru? OAQ(4)2312(FM)
1. Will the First Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s report into restoring opencast sites in Wales? OAQ(4)2312(FM)
 
13:29
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
Yes, we’ll take forward a number of recommendations from the report and we will undertake a focused review of ‘Minerals Technical Advice Note 2: Coal’. I know the Minister will host a summit of key stakeholders in July.
Gwnaf, byddwn yn bwrw ymlaen â nifer o argymhellion o'r adroddiad a byddwn yn cynnal adolygiad â phwyslais penodol o 'Nodyn Cyngor Technegol Mwynau 2: Glo'. Gwn y bydd y Gweinidog yn cynnal uwchgynhadledd o randdeiliaid allweddol ym mis Gorffennaf.
 
13:30
Bethan JenkinsBywgraffiadBiography
First Minister, your Government received the report some 14 months ago, and yet we have nothing from your colleagues except vague assurances that this research is being considered. Meanwhile, in Cwmllynfell and in the Rhymney Valley, they’re waiting to see whether you will call in East Pit and Nant Llesg respectively. Will you now implement the findings of the report that I mention and also consider some of the ideas that I, and other colleagues in this Chamber, have proposed to you with regard to opencast mining?
Brif Weinidog, derbyniodd eich Llywodraeth adroddiad tua 14 mis yn ôl, ac eto nid ydym ni wedi cael unrhyw beth gan eich cydweithwyr ac eithrio sicrwydd amwys bod yr ymchwil hwn yn cael ei ystyried. Yn y cyfamser, yng Nghwmllynfell ac yng Nghwm Rhymni, maen nhw'n aros i weld a fyddwch chi’n galw East Pit a Nant Llesg i mewn, yn y drefn honno. A wnewch chi roi canfyddiadau'r adroddiad rwy’n sôn amdano ar waith, a hefyd ystyried rhai o'r syniadau yr wyf i, a chydweithwyr eraill yn y Siambr hon, wedi eu cynnig i chi o ran cloddio glo brig?
 
13:30
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
It would be incorrect to say that nothing has been done in the meantime. The research was commissioned to provide an all-Wales picture of the situation. As a result of that research, a review is taking place of MTAN 2, working with the Coal Authority and, of course, with key stakeholders. A meeting will be held on 8 July to that effect. I can also say that the Minister has written to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to seek urgent discussions on the UK Government’s responsibilities with regard to restoration liabilities. I know that the Minister is due to meet the Minister of State at the Department of Energy and Climate Change to discuss those matters.
Byddai'n anghywir i ddweud nad oes dim wedi ei wneud yn y cyfamser. Comisiynwyd y gwaith ymchwil i gynnig darlun Cymru gyfan o'r sefyllfa. O ganlyniad i'r gwaith ymchwil hwnnw, mae adolygiad yn cael ei gynnal o MTAN 2, gan weithio gyda'r Awdurdod Glo ac, wrth gwrs, gyda rhanddeiliaid allweddol. Bydd cyfarfod yn cael ei gynnal ar 8 Gorffennaf i'r perwyl hwnnw. Gallaf hefyd ddweud bod y Gweinidog wedi ysgrifennu at yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Ynni a Newid yn yr Hinsawdd i geisio trafodaethau brys ar gyfrifoldebau Llywodraeth y DU o ran rhwymedigaethau adfer. Gwn fod disgwyl i’r Gweinidog gyfarfod â'r Gweinidog Gwladol yn yr Adran Ynni a Newid yn yr Hinsawdd i drafod y materion hynny.
 
13:31
First Minister, as you know, Park Slip presents both a blight on our environment and a danger to our communities, particularly since it stopped working. The restoration is demanded now by local residents, and Celtic Energy must act now. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the local authorities and Celtic Energy, following East Pit being allowed to continue operations and allegedly having funding allocated to that, to ensure that that funding is actually put into place to deliver restoration at this site?
Brif Weinidog, fel y gwyddoch, mae Parc Slip yn falltod ar ein hamgylchedd ac yn berygl i'n cymunedau, yn enwedig ers iddo roi'r gorau i weithio. Mae trigolion lleol yn mynnu cael y gwaith adfer wedi'i wneud erbyn hyn, ac mae'n rhaid i Celtic Energy weithredu nawr. Pa drafodaethau mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'u cael gyda'r awdurdodau lleol a Celtic Energy, yn dilyn y caniatâd i East Pit gael parhau gweithrediadau ac, yn ôl pob sôn, cael cyllid wedi’i neilltuo i hynny, i sicrhau bod y cyllid hwnnw yn cael ei roi ar gael mewn gwirionedd i wneud gwaith adfer ar y safle hwn?
 
13:31
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
The difficulty, as he will know, with Park Slip is there’s a financial black hole in terms of the restoration. As a result of the way that coal was privatised some years ago, it was not possible to put in place an appropriate amount of money to pay for full restoration, and that’s the difficulty. Bearing that in mind, that’s why the Minister is having a meeting with the UK Government Minister, in order that the wrongs that were created at that time are righted now by the UK Government.
Yr anhawster, fel y bydd ef yn gwybod, gyda Parc Slip yw bod twll du ariannol o ran y gwaith adfer. O ganlyniad i'r ffordd y preifateiddiwyd glo rai blynyddoedd yn ôl, nid oedd yn bosibl rhoi swm priodol o arian ar gael i dalu am waith adfer llawn, a dyna’r anhawster. O gofio hynny, dyna pam mae'r Gweinidog yn cael cyfarfod gyda Gweinidog Llywodraeth y DU, er mwyn i Lywodraeth y DU nawr gywiro’r camgymeriadau a grëwyd ar y pryd.
 
13:32
Mohammad AsgharBywgraffiadBiography
First Minister, earlier this year, you indicated that clean-up costs associated with opencast sites added weight to calls for a moratorium on opencast mining in Wales. Those were your words. Will the First Minister update the Assembly on any plans the Welsh Government may have in this regard, please?
Brif Weinidog, yn gynharach eleni, dywedasoch fod costau glanhau sy’n gysylltiedig â safleoedd glo brig yn ychwanegu pwys at alwadau am foratoriwm ar gloddio glo brig yng Nghymru. Dyna oedd eich geiriau. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i'r Cynulliad am unrhyw gynlluniau sydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn hyn o beth, os gwelwch yn dda?
 
13:32
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
The problem is not to do with current workings necessarily; it’s to do with workings that have already taken place. There are severe problems in terms of finding the money for restoration at opencast sites that have been worked for many, many years. The reason why there is a financial deficit in that regard is because of the way coal was privatised. That is a decision that was taken by the UK Government. We take the view that the UK Government have a responsibility to make sure that restoration at these sites takes place.
Nid yw'r broblem yn ymwneud â gweithfeydd presennol o reidrwydd; mae'n ymwneud â gweithfeydd sydd eisoes wedi digwydd. Ceir problemau difrifol o ran dod o hyd i'r arian ar gyfer gwaith adfer mewn safleoedd glo brig sydd wedi cael eu gweithio ers blynyddoedd lawer iawn. Y rheswm pam y mae diffyg ariannol yn hynny o beth yw oherwydd y ffordd y preifateiddiwyd glo. Mae hwnnw'n benderfyniad a wnaed gan Lywodraeth y DU. Rydym ni o'r farn ei bod yn gyfrifoldeb ar Lywodraeth y DU i wneud yn siŵr bod gwaith adfer yn digwydd yn y safleoedd hyn.
 
13:32
First Minister, I’m pleased that the Government has now finally approached the UK Government in terms of their responsibilities of restoring these opencast sites, but you will be aware that some of the permissions relating to opencast, where there aren’t funds for restoration, have taken place within the lifetime of this Assembly. I think East Pit had an extension within the lifetime of this Assembly, as an example of that. Can I ask you what evidence the Welsh Government is gathering together to make the strongest possible case to the UK Government, in terms of the intervention on their part, and putting forward funds to carry out these restorations, which the communities living near these opencast sites demand, and should expect, as a result of previous conditions?
Brif Weinidog, rwy'n falch bod y Llywodraeth wedi cysylltu o'r diwedd â Llywodraeth y DU o ran eu cyfrifoldebau am adfer y safleoedd glo brig hyn, ond byddwch yn ymwybodol bod rhai o'r caniatadau sy'n ymwneud â glo brig, lle nad oes arian ar gyfer gwaith adfer, wedi digwydd yn ystod oes y Cynulliad hwn. Rwy’n meddwl bod East Pit wedi cael estyniad yn ystod oes y Cynulliad hwn, fel enghraifft o hynny. A gaf i ofyn i chi pa dystiolaeth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei chasglu at ei gilydd i gyflwyno'r achos cryfaf posibl i Lywodraeth y DU, o ran yr ymyrraeth ar eu rhan nhw, a chynnig cyllid i gyflawni'r gwaith adfer hwn, y mae’r cymunedau sy'n byw ger y safleoedd glo brig hyn yn galw amdanynt, ac y dylent eu disgwyl, o ganlyniad i amodau blaenorol?
 
13:33
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
We know that the money does not seem to exist at the moment to restore those sites, but the UK Government can provide that money. I don’t see why the Welsh Government should look to provide money for mistakes that were committed in Whitehall. In the same way, local authorities can’t be reasonably expected to provide that kind of money either, I think it’s fair to say. The responsibility rests on the operators of the sites, whoever they may be at any given moment in time. We know the history of at least two sites in terms of a transfer of ownership to a company that is registered in the British Virgin Islands, or two companies registered in that way, and it’s absolutely crucial that the operators understand their liabilities, but also that the UK Government understands that the difficulty here lies in the way in which coal was privatised, and so there is a moral responsibility on the UK Government to make good on what was done then.
Rydym ni’n gwybod ei bod yn ymddangos nad yw’r arian yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd i adfer y safleoedd hynny, ond gall Llywodraeth y DU ddarparu’r cyllid hwnnw. Nid wyf yn gweld pam y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru ddarparu arian ar gyfer camgymeriadau a wnaed yn Whitehall. Yn yr un modd, ni ellir disgwyl yn rhesymol i awdurdodau lleol ddarparu’r math hwnnw o arian ychwaith, rwy’n meddwl ei bod yn deg dweud. Gweithredwyr y safleoedd sy’n gyfrifol, pwy bynnag ydyn nhw ar unrhyw adeg benodol mewn amser. Rydym ni’n ymwybodol o hanes o leiaf dau safle o ran trosglwyddo perchnogaeth i gwmni sydd wedi'i gofrestru yn Ynysoedd Virgin Prydeinig, neu dau gwmni sydd wedi’u cofrestru yn y ffordd honno, ac mae'n gwbl hanfodol bod y gweithredwyr yn deall eu rhwymedigaethau, ond hefyd bod Llywodraeth y DU yn deall mai’r anhawster yma yw’r ffordd y preifateiddiwyd glo, ac felly mae cyfrifoldeb moesol ar Lywodraeth y DU i wneud iawn am yr hyn a wnaed bryd hynny. 
 
13:34
First Minister, I’m encouraged by your responses this afternoon, and I was glad to hear the Minister for Natural Resources commit to convening an opencast summit to develop a Welsh approach to the problems of restoration. Key to making this work will be getting the right stakeholders to attend. Following recent events in my constituency, I would like to ask you, First Minister, will you make sure that communities local to opencast will be represented at this summit?
Brif Weinidog, mae eich ymatebion y prynhawn yma yn fy nghalonogi, ac roeddwn i’n falch o glywed y Gweinidog Cyfoeth Naturiol yn ymrwymo i gynnal uwchgynhadledd glo brig i ddatblygu dull Cymru o ymdrin â phroblemau adfer. Bydd cael y rhanddeiliaid cywir i fod yn bresennol yn allweddol i wneud i hyn weithio. Yn dilyn digwyddiadau diweddar yn fy etholaeth i, hoffwn ofyn i chi, Brif Weinidog, a fyddwch chi’n gwneud yn siŵr y bydd cymunedau lleol i lo brig yn cael eu cynrychioli yn yr uwchgynhadledd hon?
 
13:34
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
Absolutely. That is the intention. I know that officials will be sending invitations to relevant AMs, of course, to community representatives, the site operators, and local authority officers and members, and I understand those invitations will go out towards the end of this week.
Yn sicr. Dyna'r bwriad. Gwn y bydd swyddogion yn anfon gwahoddiadau i ACau perthnasol, wrth gwrs, i gynrychiolwyr cymunedol, gweithredwyr y safle, a swyddogion ac aelodau awdurdodau lleol, ac rwy’n deall y bydd y gwahoddiadau hynny’n cael eu hanfon tuag at ddiwedd yr wythnos hon.
 
Trafodaethau â Phrif Weinidog yr Alban
Discussions with the Scottish First Minister
 
13:35
Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-ThomasBywgraffiadBiography
2. Pa faterion y trafododd y Prif Weinidog a Phrif Weinidog yr Alban yn eu cyfarfod diweddaraf? OAQ(4)2317(FM)
2. What issues did the First Minister and the Scottish First Minister discuss at their latest meeting? OAQ(4)2317(FM)
 
13:35
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
Wel, nifer o faterion, o fuddiant i’r ddwy ochr, gan gynnwys, wrth gwrs, bolisïau Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig sy’n effeithio ar gyfrifoldebau datganoledig.
Well, a number of issues of benefit to both sides, including, of course, United Kingdom Government policies that impact on devolved responsibilities.
 
13:35
Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-ThomasBywgraffiadBiography
Diolch yn fawr i’r Prif Weinidog am ei ateb. Fel y gall o’i ddisgwyl, roedd o’n bleser mawr i fi i ddarllen y datganiad ar y cyd gan y ddau ohonoch chi fel Prif Weinidogion, ond a gaf i ofyn sut ydych chi’n bwriadu sicrhau nad yw’r Alban a Chymru yn cael eu gorfodi i ymadael â’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, yn groes i ddymuniad y bobl, a bod y sail gadarn i gyfansoddiad y ddwy wlad, yn Neddf Hawliau Dynol 1998, yn cael ei gwarchod?
I thank the First Minister for his answer. As he might expect, it was a great pleasure for me to read the joint statement by the two of you as First Ministers, but may I ask how you intend to ensure that Scotland and Wales are not forced to leave the European Union, contrary to the wishes of the people, and that the sound basis for the constitution of the two countries, namely the Human Rights Act 1998, is protected?
 
13:35
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
Wel, yn gyntaf, nid wy’n credu y byddai’r Deyrnas Unedig yn parhau petasai pleidlais i adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd ond bod Cymru a’r Alban, a Gogledd Iwerddon, wedi pleidleisio i aros i mewn. Rwy’n credu y byddai argyfwng cyfansoddiadol ynglŷn â hwnnw. Ynglŷn â Deddf Hawliau Dynol, fe ddywedodd y ddau ohonom ni bod beth mae Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig eisiau ei wneud yn newid cyfansoddiad Cymru a’r Alban, ac, felly ni ddylai hwnnw gael ei wneud heb ganiatâd Senedd yr Alban, ac, wrth gwrs, senedd Cymru.
Well, first of all, I don't believe that the United Kingdom would continue if there were a vote to leave the European Union but Wales and Scotland, and Northern Ireland, had voted to remain. I think there would be a constitutional crisis about that. As regards the Human Rights Act, the both of us said that what the United Kingdom Government wants to do would change the constitution of Wales and Scotland, and so that should not be implemented without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, and, of course, the Welsh senedd.
 
13:36
Jenny RathboneBywgraffiadBiography
Given that Nicola Sturgeon isn’t particularly interested in retaining the unification of the UK, I wondered what discussions you may have had with her, or, indeed, with other parties, on how to promote regional devolution in England, to ensure that the devolution of Scotland and Wales isn’t considered something that people in England resent, and on enabling us to have proper democratic control in other parts of the UK, not just in Wales.
O ystyried nad oes gan Nicola Sturgeon fawr o ddiddordeb mewn cadw undod y DU, roeddwn i’n meddwl tybed pa drafodaethau yr ydych chi wedi eu cael gyda hi, neu, yn wir, gyda phleidiau eraill, ar sut i hyrwyddo datganoli rhanbarthol yn Lloegr, er mwyn sicrhau nad yw datganoli Cymru a'r Alban yn cael ei ystyried fel rhywbeth y mae pobl yn Lloegr yn flin amdano, ac ar ein galluogi i gael rheolaeth ddemocrataidd briodol mewn rhannau eraill o'r DU, nid dim ond yng Nghymru.
 
13:37
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
I can’t say it formed part of our discussions, but the Member will know that I’ve said on several occasions that the trickiest issue to resolve, in terms of devolution, is England. What do you do with England, because of its size? How should devolution roll forward there? Above all else, it’s important there’s a holistic approach to devolution across the whole of the UK, rather than the piecemeal approach we see at the moment.
Ni allaf ddweud ei fod yn rhan o'n trafodaethau, ond bydd yr Aelod yn gwybod fy mod i wedi dweud ar sawl achlysur mai’r mater anoddaf i'w ddatrys, o ran datganoli, yw Lloegr. Beth ydych chi'n ei wneud gyda Lloegr, oherwydd ei maint? Sut y dylid bwrw ymlaen â datganoli yno? Yn fwy na dim arall, mae'n bwysig y ceir dull cyfannol o ddatganoli ar draws y DU gyfan, yn hytrach na'r dull tameidiog a welwn ar hyn o bryd.
 
13:37
First Minister, did you discuss the issue of tax devolution with the Scottish First Minister during your meeting? As we’re all aware, in the run-up to 2018, a raft of taxes, including stamp duty and landfill tax, will be devolved to the Welsh Government, but we still don’t have any detailed costings from your Government about how much the collection of some of those taxes are going to cost—an issue I raised with the Minister for Finance and Government Business last week. It seems to me Scotland is ahead of the game in this area, in terms of having a tax collection ability from its inception. I wondered whether you could learn from some of their experience north of the border.
Brif Weinidog, a wnaethoch chi drafod y mater o ddatganoli treth gyda Phrif Weinidog yr Alban yn ystod eich cyfarfod? Fel yr ydym ni i gyd yn ymwybodol, yn y cyfnod yn arwain at 2018, bydd llu o drethi, gan gynnwys treth stamp a threth tirlenwi yn cael eu datganoli i Lywodraeth Cymru, ond nid oes gennym unrhyw gostau manwl gan eich Llywodraeth o hyd o ran faint mae casglu rhai o'r trethi hynny’n mynd i gostio—mater a godais gyda Gweinidog Cyllid a Busnes y Llywodraeth yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae'n ymddangos i mi bod yr Alban wedi achub y blaen yn y maes hwn, o ran bod â’r gallu i gasglu treth o'r cychwyn cyntaf. Roeddwn i’n meddwl tybed a allech chi ddysgu o rywfaint o'u profiad i'r gogledd o'r ffin.
 
13:38
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
Of course. It’s fair to say, of course, that the powers were devolved earlier in Scotland as well. We have been working very closely with the Scottish Government, to learn from their experience of how to work with HM Revenue and Customs, particularly. But it is right to say that, in the discussions I had with the First Minister of Scotland, there are huge complications in terms of the powers that are proposed to be devolved to Scotland, and how they will work vis-à-vis the Barnett formula. The Treasury take one view; the Scottish Government take another.
Wrth gwrs. Mae'n deg dweud, wrth gwrs, y datganolwyd y pwerau’n gynharach yn yr Alban hefyd. Rydym ni wedi bod yn gweithio'n agos iawn gyda Llywodraeth yr Alban, i ddysgu o'u profiad o sut i weithio gyda Chyllid a Thollau Ei Mawrhydi, yn arbennig. Ond mae'n iawn i ddweud, yn y trafodaethau a gefais gyda Phrif Weinidog yr Alban, bod cymhlethdodau enfawr o ran y pwerau y bwriedir eu datganoli i'r Alban, a sut y byddant yn gweithio o ran fformiwla Barnett. Mae gan y Trysorlys un farn; mae gan Lywodraeth yr Alban un arall.
 
13:38
Did the First Minister have any opportunity to discuss with the First Minister for Scotland the effect of having 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the Scottish referendum? When does he anticipate that we will have 16 and 17-year-olds voting here, in any referendums, or in elections?
A gafodd y Prif Weinidog unrhyw gyfle i drafod gyda Phrif Weinidog yr Alban effaith cael pobl ifanc 16 a 17 oed i bleidleisio yn refferendwm yr Alban? Pryd mae'n rhagweld y bydd gennym ni bobl ifanc 16 a 17 oed yn pleidleisio yma, mewn unrhyw refferenda, neu mewn etholiadau?
 
13:38
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
We didn’t discuss the issue specifically. Of course, at the moment, we have no such power. Those powers will come to us as an Assembly. We don’t know how soon that will happen, because these matters are entirely within the hands of the UK Government. But, speaking personally, I can say that, with 16 and 17-year-olds having voted in the Scottish referendum, it is difficult to argue then that they should not be allowed to vote in other referenda, or, indeed, more generally in the future.
Ni thrafodwyd y mater yn benodol. Wrth gwrs, ar hyn o bryd, nid oes gennym unrhyw bŵer o'r fath. Bydd y pwerau hynny’n dod i ni fel Cynulliad. Nid ydym yn gwybod pa mor fuan y bydd hynny'n digwydd, gan fod y materion hyn yn gyfan gwbl yn nwylo Llywodraeth y DU. Ond, yn siarad yn bersonol, gallaf ddweud, ar ôl i bobl ifanc 16 a 17 oed bleidleisio yn refferendwm yr Alban, ei bod yn anodd dadlau wedyn na ddylen nhw gael yr hawl i bleidleisio mewn refferenda eraill, neu, yn wir, yn fwy cyffredinol yn y dyfodol.
 
Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Arweinwyr y Pleidiau
Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders
 
13:39
Y Llywydd / The Presiding OfficerBywgraffiadBiography
We now move to questions from the party leaders, and first this afternoon is the leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.
Symudwn at gwestiynau gan arweinwyr y pleidiau nawr, ac arweinydd Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, sydd gyntaf y prynhawn yma.
 
13:39
Leanne WoodBywgraffiadBiographyArweinydd Plaid Cymru / The Leader of Plaid Cymru
Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, many people are of the view that, in order to access rare drugs or treatments, they have to move to England or to other parts of Wales. Are you confident that people with rare diseases or rare cancers are able to access the treatment that they need, regardless of where they live?
Diolch, Lywydd. Brif Weinidog, mae llawer o bobl o'r farn, er mwyn cael gafael ar gyffuriau neu driniaethau prin, bod yn rhaid iddynt symud i Loegr, neu i rannau eraill o Gymru. A ydych chi’n hyderus bod pobl ag afiechydon anghyffredin neu ganserau anghyffredin yn gallu cael gafael ar y driniaeth sydd ei hangen arnynt, waeth ble maen nhw’n byw?
 
13:39
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
Yes. We have a system, of course, as the leader of Plaid Cymru will know, where, when new drugs appear, they go through an approval process via the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. On occasions where drugs are not approved, there’s then, of course, the individual patient funding requests process in Wales, where people can make individual funding requests to have drugs funded for their particular needs.
Ydw. Mae gennym ni system, wrth gwrs, fel y bydd arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn gwybod, sy'n golygu, pan fo cyffuriau newydd yn ymddangos, maen nhw’n mynd trwy broses o gymeradwyo drwy'r Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Ragoriaeth mewn Iechyd a Gofal. Ar achlysuron pan nad yw cyffuriau’n cael eu cymeradwyo, ceir wedyn, wrth gwrs, y broses ceisiadau cyllido cleifion unigol yng Nghymru, sy'n golygu y gall pobl wneud ceisiadau ariannu unigol i gael cyffuriau wedi'u hariannu ar gyfer eu hanghenion penodol.
 
13:40
The First Minister will know that the existing system is not working. We do have a problem here, yet you do seem to be in denial about that problem. Now, I know that you were aware of the case of Irfon Williams, and the Hawl i Fyw campaign, and I know as well that they’ve been trying to secure a meeting with you. There’s also been another high-profile case over the weekend involving the former chief executive of Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board. My concern also extends to those people, of course, who are not in a position to relocate either to England or to other parts of Wales for treatment that they think they need.
Bydd y Prif Weinidog yn gwybod nad yw'r system bresennol yn gweithio. Mae gennym ni broblem yma, ac eto mae’n ymddangos eich bod yn gwadu’r broblem honno. Nawr, rwy’n gwybod eich bod yn ymwybodol o achos Irfon Williams, a'r ymgyrch Hawl i Fyw, a gwn hefyd eu bod wedi bod yn ceisio trefnu cyfarfod gyda chi. Bu achos arall uchel ei broffil dros y penwythnos yn ymwneud â chyn-brif weithredwr Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr. Mae fy mhryder hefyd yn ymestyn i'r bobl hynny, wrth gwrs, nad ydynt mewn sefyllfa i symud naill ai i Loegr, neu i rannau eraill o Gymru am driniaeth y maen nhw’n credu sydd ei hangen arnynt.
 
The perception is that the Welsh system is not fair, that people in Wales are losing out. How can you reassure those patients in Wales, and what is your message to those people like Irfon Williams and his family who are not able to receive the treatments that they believe that they need?
Y dybiaeth yw nad yw system Cymru yn deg, bod pobl yng Nghymru yn dioddef. Sut allwch chi dawelu meddyliau’r cleifion hynny yng Nghymru, a beth yw eich neges i'r bobl hynny fel Irfon Williams a'i deulu nad ydynt yn gallu derbyn y triniaethau y maen nhw’n credu sydd eu hangen arnynt?
 
13:41
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
I think it’s important that treatments are not offered by politicians. It’s a decision for doctors. The IPFR process that we have, of course, is a process where doctors are involved in determining whether drugs are appropriate. It’s right to say that England has a different system in terms of cancer drugs, but we also know that, with the cancer drugs fund, fewer and fewer drugs are now available through that fund.
Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig nad yw triniaethau’n cael eu cynnig gan wleidyddion. Penderfyniad i feddygon yw hwnnw. Mae'r broses IPFR sydd gennym, wrth gwrs, yn broses lle mae meddygon yn cymryd rhan yn y broses o benderfynu a yw cyffuriau’n briodol. Mae'n iawn i ddweud bod gan Loegr wahanol system o ran cyffuriau canser, ond rydym hefyd yn gwybod, gyda’r gronfa cyffuriau canser, bod llai a llai o gyffuriau ar gael drwy'r gronfa honno erbyn hyn.
 
It’s an exceptionally emotive issue. I’m aware of course of Mr Williams’s position. It’s very difficult for him and for his family. What I can say is that, when it comes to cancer treatment in Wales, approved drugs are rolled out more quickly than they are in England, we know that greater restrictions are being placed on some of the least effective drugs in the cancer drugs fund in England, and, indeed, in terms of treatment times in Wales, we are regularly ahead of England.
Mae'n fater eithriadol o emosiynol. Rwy'n ymwybodol wrth gwrs o sefyllfa Mr Williams. Mae'n anodd iawn iddo ef a’i deulu. Yr hyn y gallaf ei ddweud, pan ddaw i driniaeth canser yng Nghymru, yw bod cyffuriau cymeradwy’n cael eu cyflwyno’n gynt nag y maent yn Lloegr, rydym yn gwybod bod mwy o gyfyngiadau’n cael eu gosod ar rai o'r cyffuriau lleiaf effeithiol yn y gronfa cyffuriau canser yn Lloegr, ac, yn wir, o ran amseroedd triniaeth yng Nghymru, rydym ni ar y blaen i Loegr yn rheolaidd.
 
It is very difficult to comment on individual cases because they’re very difficult for the individuals involved and for the families involved, but in terms of access to treatment, we believe that access is fair and equitable.
Mae'n anodd iawn gwneud sylwadau ar achosion unigol gan eu bod yn anodd iawn i'r unigolion dan sylw ac i'r teuluoedd dan sylw, ond o ran mynediad at driniaeth, credwn fod mynediad yn deg ac yn gyfiawn.
 
13:42
Many people, First Minister, do not believe the situation is fair and equitable at all. A Plaid Cymru Government would establish a new medicines and treatments fund that would end the postcode lottery of unfair treatments and would expand the number of treatments that are available to patients in Wales. Now, I’m not clear from your answer, First Minister, whether or not you accept that there’s a problem or whether or not you’re prepared to hear from Irfon Williams and the campaigners, or whether or not you have a solution to this problem at all. So, I’ll ask you again: do you accept that there is a problem with patients in Wales being treated unfairly? If you do accept that there is a problem, can you please tell us what you’re going to do about it?
Mae llawer o bobl, Brif Weinidog, nad ydynt yn credu bod y sefyllfa’n deg a chyfiawn o gwbl. Byddai Llywodraeth Plaid Cymru yn sefydlu cronfa meddyginiaethau a thriniaethau newydd a fyddai'n rhoi terfyn ar y loteri cod post o driniaethau annheg ac yn ehangu nifer y triniaethau sydd ar gael i gleifion yng Nghymru. Nawr, nid wyf yn deall yn iawn o'ch ateb, Brif Weinidog, pa un a ydych chi’n derbyn bod problem na pha un a ydych yn barod i glywed gan Irfon Williams a'r ymgyrchwyr, na pha un a oes gennych chi ateb i’r broblem hon o gwbl. Felly, gofynnaf i chi eto: a ydych chi’n derbyn bod problem gyda chleifion yng Nghymru yn cael eu trin yn annheg? Os ydych yn derbyn bod problem, a allwch chi ddweud wrthym beth yr ydych chi'n mynd i wneud am y peth?
 
13:42
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
First of all, I think that cancer treatment in Wales is widely available for people. There are some individuals—Mr Williams is one—who are going through a particularly difficult time. I think that’s something that we all appreciate. One thing I have to say is that, in the main, for most people, the drugs that are available through the cancer drugs fund in England are not life-saving drugs. For most people, they are drugs that sometimes extend life by a few weeks, a few months—it’s difficult to tell with individuals—but of course it’s natural for people to grasp an opportunity if it’s there.
Yn gyntaf oll, rwy’n meddwl bod triniaeth canser yng Nghymru ar gael yn eang i bobl. Ceir rhai unigolion—mae Mr Williams yn un—sy'n mynd trwy gyfnod arbennig o anodd. Rwy’n credu bod hynny'n rhywbeth yr ydym ni i gyd yn ei sylweddoli. Un peth y mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud, ar y cyfan, ar gyfer y rhan fwyaf o bobl, nid yw’r cyffuriau sydd ar gael drwy'r gronfa cyffuriau canser yn Lloegr yn gyffuriau sy'n achub bywydau. I’r rhan fwyaf o bobl, maen nhw’n gyffuriau sydd weithiau'n ymestyn bywyd o ychydig wythnosau, ychydig fisoedd—mae'n anodd dweud gydag unigolion—ond wrth gwrs mae'n naturiol i bobl fanteisio ar gyfle os ydyw ar gael.
 
There is a wider issue here, though, and that is if we are to have a system that ignores NICE and ignores an approvals process, then what’s the point of having an approvals process in the first place? Secondly, one of the problems with the cancer drugs fund is that it pays drugs companies whatever they ask for the drugs. There is no pressure on them to reduce the cost of drugs. Within the NICE system, there is. What happens in NICE is they will come back with a reduced price, and then of course there is a cost saving as far as the NHS is concerned. The difficulty with having a system where there is no pressure on those drugs companies is they can charge whatever they want knowing that they’ll get paid whatever they want. That financial discipline isn’t there. And of course it’s important to make sure that we have drugs that are effective. Pharmaceutical companies will make lots of claims about the drugs that they bring onto the market. They invest a lot of money into those drugs, and there has to be a process to examine those claims and see whether a drug is going to be effective for most people in the future. Where an individual may be able to benefit from a drug that’s not approved, then the IPFR process is there, although of course, as you will know, the Minister has been looking at how that process might be improved in Wales.
Ceir mater ehangach yma, fodd bynnag, sef os ydym ni’n mynd i gael system sy'n anwybyddu NICE ac yn anwybyddu proses gymeradwyo, yna beth yw'r pwynt o gael proses gymeradwyo yn y lle cyntaf? Yn ail, un o'r problemau gyda'r gronfa cyffuriau canser yw ei bod yn talu faint bynnag mae cwmnïau cyffuriau’n gofyn amdano. Nid oes unrhyw bwysau arnyn nhw i leihau cost cyffuriau. Mae pwysau arnyn nhw yn system NICE. Yr hyn sy'n digwydd yn NICE yw y byddant yn dod yn ôl gyda phris gostyngedig, ac yna wrth gwrs ceir arbediad cost cyn belled ag y mae’r GIG yn y cwestiwn. Yr anhawster gyda chael system lle nad oes pwysau ar y cwmnïau cyffuriau hynny yw y gallant godi beth bynnag maen nhw’n ei ddymuno gan wybod y byddant yn derbyn pa bynnag dâl maen nhw ei eisiau. Nid yw’r ddisgyblaeth ariannol yno. Ac wrth gwrs, mae'n bwysig gwneud yn siŵr bod gennym gyffuriau sy'n effeithiol. Bydd cwmnïau fferyllol yn gwneud llawer o honiadau am y cyffuriau maen nhw’n eu rhoi ar y farchnad. Maen nhw’n buddsoddi llawer o arian yn y cyffuriau hynny, ac mae'n rhaid cael proses o archwilio’r honiadau hynny a gweld a yw cyffur yn mynd i fod yn effeithiol i'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yn y dyfodol. Pryd y gallai allai unigolyn elwa ar gyffur nad yw wedi'i gymeradwyo, yna mae’r broses IPFR yno, er, wrth gwrs, fel y gwyddoch, mae'r Gweinidog wedi bod yn ystyried sut y gellid gwella’r broses honno yng Nghymru.
 
13:44
Y Llywydd / The Presiding OfficerBywgraffiadBiography
We now move to the leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.
Symudwn nawr at arweinydd yr wrthblaid, Andrew R.T. Davies.
 
13:44
Andrew R.T. DaviesBywgraffiadBiographyArweinydd yr Wrthblaid / The Leader of the Opposition
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Mary Burrows made some very valid points, and very emotional points, over the weekend in her press statements, First Minister. She is an individual who has been through a lot of pain, a lot of grief—her own husband passed away after a terminal diagnosis of cancer, obviously, and she’s got her own battle on at the moment. She is also uniquely placed as a former administrator—senior administrator—in the largest health board in Wales. I would welcome your comments and your thoughts on what she said about a cancer drugs fund and access to cancer drugs here in Wales.
Diolch i chi, Lywydd. Gwnaeth Mary Burrows rai pwyntiau dilys iawn, a phwyntiau emosiynol iawn, dros y penwythnos yn ei datganiadau i'r wasg, Brif Weinidog. Mae hi'n unigolyn sydd wedi bod trwy lawer o boen, llawer o alar—bu farw ei gŵr ei hun ar ôl cael diagnosis o ganser angheuol, yn amlwg, ac mae hi’n wynebu ei brwydr ei hun ar hyn o bryd. Mae hi hefyd mewn sefyllfa unigryw fel cyn-weinyddwr—uwch weinyddwr—yn y bwrdd iechyd mwyaf yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn croesawu eich sylwadau a'ch barn ar yr hyn a ddywedodd am gronfa cyffuriau canser a mynediad at gyffuriau canser yma yng Nghymru.
 
13:45
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
It’s very difficult to comment because I don’t know the full details. I don’t know, for example, whether an application was made through the existing system for funding; that’s not something I’m aware of. Without knowing the full facts, it’s very difficult to comment, but, of course, for her, it’s a difficult situation, as it is for anybody who’s fighting cancer.
Mae'n anodd iawn gwneud sylwadau gan nad wyf yn gwybod y manylion llawn. Nid wyf yn gwybod, er enghraifft, a wnaed cais drwy'r system bresennol am gyllid; nid yw hynny'n rhywbeth rwy'n ymwybodol ohono. Heb wybod y ffeithiau llawn, mae'n anodd iawn gwneud sylwadau, ond, wrth gwrs, iddi hi, mae'n sefyllfa anodd, fel y mae i unrhyw un sy’n ymladd canser.
 
13:45
Andrew R.T. DaviesBywgraffiadBiography
Her comments allude to the fact that her own consultant said that she would not be able to access the drugs that she would require. You just said in response to the opening remarks from the leader of Plaid Cymru that politicians shouldn’t prescribe drugs; clinicians should prescribe drugs. In this instance, Mary Burrows was very clear that her clinicians advised her to seek an address in England so that she could access the drugs that would prolong her life. Sadly, her diagnosis is terminal, but she could get some drugs that could give her valuable time. Now, you’ve said quite clearly today that politicians shouldn’t prescribe the drugs; clinicians should. Well, she has identified that clinicians in her case were telling her that the drugs would benefit her, but politicians do create the policy, and, in this case, your Government has created the policy that is preventing people from accessing these drugs. Will you, in the light of her remarks and many other people’s remarks—clinicians, patients and family members—review the advice and the policy that you issue in this particular field?
Mae ei sylwadau’n cyfeirio at y ffaith bod ei hymgynghorydd ei hun wedi dweud na fyddai'n gallu cael mynediad at y cyffuriau y byddai eu hangen arni. Rydych chi newydd ddweud mewn ymateb i'r sylwadau agoriadol gan arweinydd Plaid Cymru na ddylai gwleidyddion ragnodi cyffuriau; clinigwyr ddylai ragnodi cyffuriau. Yn yr achos hwn, roedd Mary Burrows yn eglur iawn bod ei chlinigwyr wedi ei chynghori hi i ddod o hyd i gyfeiriad yn Lloegr fel y gallai gael gafael ar y cyffuriau a fyddai'n ymestyn ei bywyd. Yn anffodus, mae ei diagnosis yn angheuol, ond gallai gael cyffuriau a allai roi amser gwerthfawr iddi. Nawr, rydych chi wedi dweud yn gwbl eglur heddiw na ddylai gwleidyddion ragnodi cyffuriau; cyfrifoldeb clinigwyr yw hynny. Wel, mae hi wedi nodi bod clinigwyr yn ei hachos hi yn dweud wrthi y byddai'r cyffuriau o les iddi, ond mai gwleidyddion sy'n creu'r polisi, ac, yn yr achos hwn, eich Llywodraeth chi sydd wedi creu’r polisi sy'n atal pobl rhag cael gafael ar y cyffuriau hyn. A wnewch chi, yng ngoleuni ei sylwadau a sylwadau llawer o bobl eraill—clinigwyr, cleifion ac aelodau o deuluoedd—adolygu'r cyngor a'r polisi yr ydych chi’n eu harddel yn y maes penodol hwn?
 
13:46
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
I think there are two points here. What is not clear is whether her own clinicians made the application for funding—it is not clear. If they did not, then they need to explain why not, and I don’t know whether that’s the case or not. It simply isn’t correct for any clinician to say, ‘This drug is not available in Wales under any circumstances’. You’re seeking advice, I see, from somebody. That wouldn’t be right, because, of course, we have a system that enables people to apply for funding, and, as part of that system, it is clinicians who take the decision. The people who take the decisions are not bureaucrats and they are not politicians; they are clinicians themselves.
Rwy'n meddwl bod dau bwynt yma. Yr hyn nad yw'n eglur yw pa un a wnaethpwyd y cais am gyllid gan ei chlinigwyr ei hun—nid yw'n eglur. Os na wnaethant, yna mae angen iddyn nhw esbonio pam, ac nid wyf yn gwybod a yw hynny'n wir ai peidio. Yn syml, nid yw'n gywir i unrhyw glinigwr ddweud, 'Nid yw'r cyffur hwn ar gael yng Nghymru dan unrhyw amgylchiadau'. Rydych chi’n gofyn am gyngor, rwy’n gweld, gan rywun. Ni fyddai hynny'n iawn, oherwydd, wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni system sy'n galluogi pobl i wneud cais am gyllid, ac, yn rhan o'r system honno, clinigwyr sy'n gwneud y penderfyniad. Nid biwrocratiaid ac nid gwleidyddion yw’r bobl sy'n gwneud y penderfyniadau; y clinigwyr eu hunain sy'n gwneud hynny.
 
13:47
Andrew R.T. DaviesBywgraffiadBiography
First Minister, I don’t need to take advice, although Darren Millar has been at the forefront of fighting for this campaign, along with me, to get a cancer drugs fund here in Wales, and I welcome the belated support for such a fund here in Wales. It is regrettable that you, as the Government, have chosen not to adjust your policy to meet the circumstances that many people face. Mary Burrows was quite clear that the advice that her consultants—I would refer you to her comments, because they are there for all to read—her consultants said that her application, via the funding mechanism that we have here in Wales, would fail. They said it would fail. That was the advice that her consultant gave her. Now, she is acting on the best advice available to her, with a diagnosis that’s terminal and, ultimately, she hasn’t got the time to hang around, as many other patients haven’t got the time to hang around, such as Irfon Williams, who has also sought this route to the other side of Offa’s Dyke. Again, I do implore you to look at the advice and the policy that your Government has taken, as I’ve been imploring to do you since I’ve taken up the leadership of the Conservative group, in the absence of you reviewing that policy and that advice, and that is a discussion that we’ll continue to have.
Brif Weinidog, nid oes angen i mi gael cyngor, er bod Darren Millar wedi bod ar flaen y gad o ran ymladd dros yr ymgyrch hon, ynghyd â mi, i gael cronfa cyffuriau canser yma yng Nghymru, ac rwy’n croesawu'r gefnogaeth hwyr i gronfa o'r fath yma yng Nghymru. Mae'n drueni eich bod chi, fel Llywodraeth, wedi dewis peidio ag addasu eich polisi i gyd-fynd â'r amgylchiadau y mae llawer o bobl yn eu hwynebu. Roedd Mary Burrows yn gwbl eglur bod y cyngor i’w hymgynghorwyr—rwyf am eich cyfeirio at ei sylwadau, gan eu bod nhw ar gael i bawb eu darllen—dywedodd ei hymgynghorwyr y byddai ei chais, drwy'r dull ariannu sydd gennym ni yma yng Nghymru, yn methu. Dywedasant y byddai'n methu. Dyna oedd y cyngor a roddwyd iddi gan ei hymgynghorydd. Nawr, mae hi'n gweithredu ar y cyngor gorau sydd ar gael iddi, gyda diagnosis sy'n angheuol ac, yn y pen draw, nid oes ganddi amser i’w wastraffu, fel nad oes gan lawer o gleifion eraill amser i’w wastraffu, fel Irfon Williams, sydd hefyd wedi dilyn y llwybr hwn i ochr arall Clawdd Offa. Unwaith eto, rwy’n erfyn arnoch chi i ystyried y cyngor a'r polisi y mae eich Llywodraeth wedi'u dilyn, fel yr wyf wedi bod yn erfyn arnoch chi i’w wneud ers i mi fod yn arweinydd y grŵp Ceidwadol, gan nad ydych chi wedi adolygu’r polisi hwnnw a’r cyngor hwnnw, ac mae honno'n drafodaeth y byddwn yn parhau i’w chael. 
 
The other bit of advice that Mary Burrows brought forward was that, on a UK basis, there does need to be a discussion held between the Governments and administrations on how we develop better access to all new treatments. I’d be interested to hear, if you’re not prepared to review your policy on cancer drugs, how you would take forward that discussion nationally, with England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, so that these new treatments can become more widely available across the whole of the United Kingdom and we end the postcode lottery.
Y darn arall o gyngor a gyflwynwyd gan Mary Burrows oedd bod angen, ar sail y DU gyfan, cynnal trafodaeth rhwng y Llywodraethau a'r gweinyddiaethau ar sut y dylem ni ddatblygu gwell mynediad at yr holl driniaethau newydd. Byddai gennyf i ddiddordeb mewn clywed, os nad ydych chi’n barod i adolygu eich polisi ar gyffuriau canser, sut y byddech chi’n bwrw ymlaen â’r drafodaeth honno yn genedlaethol, gyda Lloegr, yr Alban a Gogledd Iwerddon, fel y gall y triniaethau newydd hyn fod ar gael yn fwy eang ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig gyfan gan roi terfyn ar y loteri cod post.
 
13:49
Carwyn JonesBywgraffiadBiographyY Prif Weinidog / The First Minister
We have an innovative treatments fund, of course, that has been in place for some years now. In terms of the cancer drugs fund, I don’t know, clearly, what the consultant said to Mary Burrows, but, if the consultant said that there was not even any point applying for funding, then that is not the right advice. Now, I don’t know whether that is what was said or not—we don’t know the full detail of it—but if the consultant said