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Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mawrth, 10 Gorffennaf 2012
Tuesday, 10 July 2012

Cynnwys
Contents

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog
Questions to the First Minister

Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes
Business Statement and Announcement

Datganiad: Y Dystiolaeth sy’n Tanategu’r Achos dros Ad-drefnu’r GIG yng Nghymru
Statement: The Evidence Underpinning the Case for Reconfiguring the NHS in Wales

Datganiad: Cyflwyno Bil Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru)
Statement: Introduction of the Public Audit (Wales) Bill

Datganiad: Adroddiad Blynyddol y Prif Swyddog Meddygol 2011
Statement: The Chief Medical Officer’s Annual Report 2011

Datganiad: y Wybodaeth Ddiweddaraf am y Gronfa Gymdeithasol
Statement: Update on the Social Fund

Rheoliadau Dynodi Nodweddion (Apelau) (Cymru) 2012
Designation of Features (Appeals) (Wales) Regulations 2012

Rhifedd
Numeracy

Cyfnod Pleidleisio
Voting Time

Dadl Fer a Ohiriwyd ers 27 Mehefin 2012: Arafu’r Traffig i Sicrhau Diogelwch ein Plant Ysgol
Short Debate Postponed from 27 June 2012: Putting the Brakes on Traffic to Ensure the Safety of our School Children

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr. Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad.
In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation has been included.

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Rosemary Butler) yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) in the Chair.

The Record

Y Llywydd: Galwaf Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru i drefn.

The Presiding Officer: I call the National Assembly for Wales to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog
Questions to the First Minister

The Record

Iechyd Anifeiliaid a Lles Da Byw

Animal Health and the Welfare of Livestock

1. William Powell: Beth yw blaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer iechyd anifeiliaid a lles da byw. OAQ(4)0621(FM)

1. William Powell: What are the Welsh Government’s priorities for animal health and the welfare of livestock. OAQ(4)0621(FM)

The First Minister (Carwyn Jones): Animal health priorities include the eradication of bovine TB, ensuring contingency measures are in place to prevent and manage the incursion of a disease outbreak. We prioritise very strongly the need to improve welfare standards of animals at the time of slaughter, which will also need to comply with the law.

Y Prif Weinidog (Carwyn Jones): Mae blaenoriaethau iechyd anifeiliaid yn cynnwys dileu TB buchol, gan sicrhau bod mesurau wrth gefn ar waith i atal a rheoli achosion o’r clefyd rhag lledaenu. Rydym yn rhoi blaenoriaeth amlwg iawn i’r angen i wella safonau lles anifeiliaid adeg eu lladd, a bydd angen i hynny gydymffurfio â'r gyfraith hefyd.

William Powell:  Thank you very much for that response. As you are aware, last week’s announcement of further reductions in farm-gate prices for dairy farmers has come at a time when feed prices have been soaring and the current adverse weather has driven herds indoors, depleting existing stocks and, indeed, threatening next year’s supplies. Taken together, these factors are driving dairy farmers, in many cases, to the edge of bankruptcy and to the political action that we expect to see tomorrow. With these impacts in mind, what specific contingencies are in place to deal with the potential animal health and welfare crisis in the dairy sector in Wales should these factors combine to suddenly force dairy farmers out of business?

William Powell: Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ymateb. Fel y gwyddoch, mae’r cyhoeddiad yr wythnos diwethaf ynghylch gostyngiadau pellach yn y prisiau a gaiff ffermwyr llaeth, wedi dod ar adeg pan fo prisiau bwyd anifeiliaid wedi cynyddu’n aruthrol ac mae'r tywydd gwael presennol wedi golygu bod buchesi’n cael eu cadw dan do, sy'n disbyddu stociau bwyd presennol ac, yn wir, yn bygwth cyflenwadau y flwyddyn nesaf. Gyda'i gilydd, mae'r ffactorau hyn yn peri bod ffermwyr llaeth, yn aml, yn agos at fod yn fethdalwyr ac yn eu harwain at y camau gweithredu gwleidyddol yr ydym yn disgwyl eu gweld yfory. O gadw’r effeithiau hyn mewn cof, pa gynlluniau wrth gefn penodol sydd ar waith i ymdrin â'r argyfwng iechyd a lles anifeiliaid posibl yn y sector llaeth yng Nghymru, pe bai’r ffactorau hyn yn cyfuno ac yn gwthio ffermwyr llaeth allan o fusnes  yn sydyn?

The First Minister: We will always look to ensure that animal health and welfare standards are kept high. I know that things are difficult for dairy farmers and, indeed, the Deputy Minister for agriculture has written to the UK Government suggesting that the role of the proposed supermarket adjudicator should be strengthened, given the difficulty that dairy farmers are experiencing at the moment, in terms of both the weather and prices.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwn bob amser yn ceisio sicrhau bod safonau iechyd a lles anifeiliaid yn parhau’n uchel. Gwn fod pethau'n anodd i ffermwyr llaeth ac, yn wir, mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog amaethyddiaeth wedi ysgrifennu at Lywodraeth y DU yn awgrymu y dylai rôl y dyfarnwr archfarchnad arfaethedig gael ei gryfhau, o gofio’r anawsterau y mae ffermwyr llaeth yn eu hwynebu ar hyn o bryd, o ran y tywydd a’r prisiau.

Antoinette Sandbach: Do you agree with me that when Welsh livestock has been reared according to the highest standards of welfare, animals should be processed humanely at abattoirs? Professor Bill Reilly, former president of the British Veterinary Association, said that slaughter without stunning should be proportionate to actual demand from those religious communities that are legally exempt from the requirement to stun. Will you confirm that your Government is fully opposed to these exemptions being exploited as a cost-cutting exercise by processors simply to avoid the expense of running a stunning unit, particularly at any premises that has benefited from Welsh Government grant funding?

Antoinette Sandbach: A gytunwch â mi, pan fydd da byw Cymru wedi cael eu magu yn ôl y safonau lles uchaf, y dylai anifeiliaid gael eu prosesu heb greulondeb mewn lladd-dai? Dywedodd yr Athro Bill Reilly, cyn-lywydd Cymdeithas Milfeddygon Prydain, y dylai lladd heb stynio fod yn gymesur â'r galw gwirioneddol gan y cymunedau crefyddol hynny sydd wedi’u heithrio’n gyfreithiol o'r gofyniad i stynio. A wnewch chi gadarnhau bod eich Llywodraeth yn gwrthwynebu’n llwyr y modd y gallai proseswyr ecsbloetio’r eithriadau hyn er mwyn osgoi'r gost o redeg uned stynio, yn enwedig mewn unrhyw eiddo a gafodd arian grant gan Lywodraeth Cymru?

The First Minister: Absolutely. There are religious exemptions, and they are exemptions based purely on religious belief. They should not be used as a backdoor way of processing animals. If there are any examples that the Member is able to give to me on a confidential basis, I would be happy to accept them and investigate them thoroughly.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn sicr. Mae eithriadau crefyddol, ac maent yn eithriadau sy’n seiliedig ar gred grefyddol yn unig. Ni ddylid eu defnyddio fel ffordd drws cefn o brosesu anifeiliaid. Os oes unrhyw enghreifftiau y gall yr Aelod eu rhoi i mi yn gyfrinachol, byddwn yn fodlon eu derbyn, ac ymchwilio’n drylwyr iddynt.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Ategaf yr hyn a ddywedodd William Powell am y diwydiant llaeth yng Nghymru. Byddwch yn ymwybodol o’r sefyllfa yn sgîl eich swyddi blaenorol yn y Llywodraeth. Nid oeddwn yn gwbl glir o’ch ymateb pa un a ydych chi’n derbyn bod y sefyllfa bellach yn un argyfyngus o ran ffermwyr llaeth yng Nghymru neu beidio. Maent mewn sefyllfa lle mae’r prisiau am eu cynnyrch yn gallu gostwng dros nos, ac eto maent wedi clymu i mewn i gytundebau sy’n golygu bod yn rhaid iddynt aros am 12 mis efallai cyn cael eu rhyddhau o’r cytundebau hynny. Rwyf yn falch o glywed yr hyn y mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog wedi’i wneud. Onid ydych chi’n credu bod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru sicrhau rhaglen o weithredu pendant i ddiogelu’r diwydiant pwysig hwn yng Nghymru?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: I endorse the comments made by William Powell about the dairy industry in Wales. You will be aware of the situation given your previous posts in Government. I was not entirely clear from your response whether you accept that the situation is now critical in terms of dairy farmers in Wales. They find themselves in a situation where the prices for their produce can fall over night, and yet they are tied in to contracts whereby they may have to wait for 12 months before they can be released from those contracts. I was very pleased to hear what the Deputy Minister has been doing. Do you now believe that the Welsh Government needs to ensure that there is a specific programme of action in place to safeguard this important industry in Wales?

Y Prif Weinidog: Y broblem yw’r pris ar hyn o bryd, ac mae’n rhaid i hwnnw gael ei ddylanwadu gan Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Cefnogwn y ffaith y bydd y Llywodraeth honno yn sefydlu dyfarnwr archfarchnadoedd. Mae’n bwysig dros ben bod gan y dyfarnwr ddigon o rym i sicrhau bod ffermwyr llaeth yn cael tegwch o ran y pris a gânt. Mae’r tywydd eleni wedi golygu bod llawer o wartheg wedi methu mynd mas i bori ar y gwair, ac mae hynny’n golygu bod costau ffermwyr yn llawer uwch gan eu bod yn gorfod prynu bwyd yn lle gadael i’r anifeiliaid bori fel a wnânt fel rheol. Mae’r Dirprwy Weinidog wedi ysgrifennu at Lywodraeth y DU er mwyn sicrhau bod digon o rym gan y dyfarnwr er mwyn helpu ffermwyr llaeth.

The First Minister: The problem is the price at the moment, and that is something that the UK Government can influence. We welcome the fact that that Government is to put in place a supermarket adjudicator. It is very important that that adjudicator has adequate powers to ensure that dairy farmers are treated fairly in terms of the price that they receive. The weather this year has meant that many cattle have not been able to go outside to graze, which then means that farmers’ costs are far higher because they have to buy in feed rather than allowing cattle to graze as they usually would. The Deputy Minister has written to the UK Government in order to ensure that the adjudicator has sufficient powers to assist the dairy industry.

Tlodi

Poverty

2. Sandy Mewies: Sut y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu lleihau nifer y bobl sy’n byw mewn tlodi yng Nghymru dros y pedair blynedd nesaf. OAQ(4)0623(FM)

2. Sandy Mewies: How is the Welsh Government planning to reduce the numbers of people living in poverty in Wales over the next four years. OAQ(4)0623(FM)

The First Minister: Last week, we published our 'Tackling Poverty Action Plan 2012-2016’, which sets out our activity over the next four years to reduce poverty in the key areas of poverty prevention, helping people to improve their skills and qualifications, and action to mitigate the impact of poverty here and now.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyhoeddwyd ein 'Cynllun Gweithredu ar gyfer Trechu Tlodi 2012-2016', sy'n nodi ein gweithgareddau dros y pedair blynedd nesaf i leihau achosion o dlodi yn y meysydd atal tlodi allweddol, gan helpu pobl i wella eu sgiliau a'u cymwysterau, a gweithredu i liniaru ar effaith tlodi y funud yma.

Sandy Mewies: Recent figures show that there has been a significant fall in child poverty in Wales. However, those figures are expected to rise again in the next few years, with, according to Save the Children, another 6,000 more young people being pushed into poverty next year because of spending cuts and the UK coalition Government’s changes to benefits. Benefit cuts will hit Wales the hardest. Therefore, what impact is this having on the Welsh Government’s work in trying to protect our poorest children?

Sandy Mewies: Mae ffigurau diweddar yn dangos bod gostyngiad sylweddol wedi bod mewn tlodi plant yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, disgwylir y bydd y ffigurau yn codi eto yn y blynyddoedd nesaf oherwydd yn ôl elusen Achub y Plant, bydd 6,000 yn fwy o bobl ifanc yn cael eu gwthio i dlodi y flwyddyn nesaf oherwydd toriadau mewn gwariant a newidiadau i fudd-daliadau gan Lywodraeth Glymblaid y DU. Bydd y toriadau i fudd-daliadau yn effeithio ar Gymru’n fwy na neb. Felly, pa effaith a gaiff hyn ar waith Llywodraeth Cymru wrth geisio amddiffyn ein plant tlotaf?

The First Minister: We have established a ministerial task and finish group, which is undertaking a comprehensive assessment of the accumulative effects of the benefit changes. While, as a Government, we cannot pick up the financial burden of the changes being driven by Whitehall, we can, wherever possible, use the results of this assessment to target our efforts to help mitigate the negative implications of welfare reform.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym wedi sefydlu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen y Gweinidog, sy'n cynnal asesiad cynhwysfawr o effeithiau cynyddol y newidiadau i fudd-daliadau. Er na allwn, fel Llywodraeth, ysgwyddo baich ariannol y newidiadau a gaiff eu gweithredu gan San Steffan, gallwn ddefnyddio canlyniadau'r asesiad hwn, lle bynnag y bo’n bosibl, i dargedu ein hymdrechion i helpu i liniaru ar oblygiadau negyddol diwygio lles.

Mohammad Asghar: According to Age Alliance Wales, more than 100,000 older people live in poverty in Wales. Many struggle to make ends meet and are worried about paying their winter fuel bills. Do you agree that measures to tackle fuel poverty are important in fighting poverty in general, and will you join me in welcoming the Westminster Government’s warm home discount scheme, which offers a rebate to pensioners on low incomes and to other vulnerable households to help with the cost of their fuel bills?

Mohammad Asghar: Yn ôl Cynghrair Henoed Cymru, mae dros 100,000 o bobl hŷn yn byw mewn tlodi yng Nghymru. Mae llawer yn ei chael hi’n anodd cael dau ben llinyn ynghyd, ac maent yn poeni am dalu eu biliau tanwydd gaeaf. A ydych yn cytuno bod mesurau i fynd i'r afael â thlodi tanwydd yn bwysig o ran lleihau tlodi yn gyffredinol, ac a wnewch ymuno â mi i groesawu cynllun disgownt cartrefi cynnes Llywodraeth San Steffan, sy'n cynnig ad-daliad i bensiynwyr ar incwm isel ac i aelwydydd eraill sy’n agored i niwed, i’w helpu i dalu eu biliau tanwydd?

The First Minister: Over the years, we have had schemes such as the home energy efficiency scheme, which ensure that pensioners are able to heat their homes at an affordable rate in the winter. However, I regret the fact that it seems that the idea is being floated by your party that the winter fuel allowance should be cut for some pensioners and that free prescriptions should also be cut for some pensioners.

Y Prif Weinidog: Dros y blynyddoedd, cafwyd cynlluniau fel y cynllun effeithlonrwydd ynni cartref, i sicrhau bod modd i bensiynwyr wresogi eu cartrefi ar gyfradd fforddiadwy yn y gaeaf. Fodd bynnag, rwy’n gresynu at y ffaith bod y syniad yn cael ei wyntyllu gan eich plaid, y dylid dileu’r lwfans tanwydd gaeaf ar gyfer rhai pensiynwyr a dileu presgripsiynau am ddim ar gyfer rhai pensiynwyr.

Jenny Rathbone: Research published last week stated that 1 million children are going hungry across Britain; in fact, the word 'starving’ was used. While we need to be careful in how we address this information, this issue has been raised with me by people who deliver services to children. What does the Government believe is necessary to ensure that we are doing the best possible to ensure that children are properly fed?

Jenny Rathbone: Roedd ymchwil a gyhoeddwyd yr wythnos diwethaf yn datgan bod miliwn o blant llwglyd ledled Prydain; yn wir, defnyddiwyd y gair 'starving’ neu 'newynog'. Er bod angen i ni fod yn ofalus sut rydym yn defnyddio’r wybodaeth, nodwyd y mater hwn imi gan bobl sy'n darparu gwasanaethau i blant. Beth sy’n angenrheidiol, ym marn y Llywodraeth, i sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud y gorau posibl i sicrhau bod plant yn cael digon o fwyd?

The First Minister: We recognise that food banks, for example, can be invaluable to those people who find themselves in need. We are looking to explore the links that can be made between existing food banks in Wales and relevant Welsh Government programmes such as Communities First and the social fund. However, ultimately, what people need is a decent amount of money to live on, as well as better skills and more jobs.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym yn cydnabod bod banciau bwyd, er enghraifft, yn amhrisiadwy i'r bobl hynny sydd mewn angen. Rydym yn awyddus i edrych ar y cysylltiadau y gellir eu gwneud rhwng y banciau bwyd presennol yng Nghymru a rhaglenni perthnasol Llywodraeth Cymru fel Cymunedau yn Gyntaf a'r gronfa gymdeithasol. Fodd bynnag, yr hyn sydd ei angen ar bobl, yn y pen draw, yw swm digonol o arian i fyw arno, yn ogystal â sgiliau gwell a mwy o swyddi.

Cwestiynau Heb Rybudd gan Arweinwyr y Pleidiau

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

The Leader of Plaid Cymru (Leanne Wood): First Minister, do you stand by what you told the Assembly on 1 May 2012, which was that the Marcus Longley report is 'not a Government report’?

Arweinydd Plaid Cymru (Leanne Wood): Brif Weinidog, a ydych yn glynu wrth  yr hyn a ddywedasoch wrth y Cynulliad ar 1 Mai 2012 am adroddiad Marcus Longley, sef 'nid adroddiad gan y Llywodraeth ydyw’?

The First Minister: Yes.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ydw.

Leanne Wood: If that is the case, will you reflect fully on the content of the e-mail exchanges that have come to light today? Those e-mails clearly show collusion and an intent to make facts fit a predetermined conclusion. Professor Longley states in those e-mails:

Leanne Wood: Os yw hynny'n wir, a wnewch chi adrodd ynghylch cynnwys yr ohebiaeth e-bost a ddaeth i’r amlwg heddiw? Mae’r negeseuon e-bost hynny’n dangos bod cydgynllwynio amlwg wedi bod a bwriad i sicrhau bod ffeithiau’n cyfateb i  gasgliad a bennwyd ymlaen llaw. Dywed yr Athro Longley yn yr ohebiaeth e-bost:

'On reflection, the evidence as presented does not seem to be as incisive as we might have hoped’.

Ar ôl ystyried, nid yw’r dystiolaeth fel y’i cyflwynwyd yn ymddangos mor dreiddgar ag y byddem wedi’i  obeithio.

Is the Minister for Health and Social Services included in that 'we’? Was she involved directly, or indirectly, in that e-mail exchange?

A yw'r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol wedi’i chynnwys yn y cyfeiriad hwnnw? A oedd hi wedi’i chynnwys yn uniongyrchol neu'n anuniongyrchol yn y negeseuon e-bost hynny?

The First Minister: No.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nac ydyw.

Leanne Wood: We are used to Labour spin and the sexing up of dossiers. [Laughter.] Is it really credible that the Minister for health did not know what was going on and that she had no involvement? If she did not know, do you not see that that is a problem? Does it not show incompetence? Can you afford incompetence in your Minister for health?

Leanne Wood: Rydym wedi arfer â sbin Llafur a gwneud cynnwys coflenni yn fwy apelgar.[Chwerthin.] A yw'n gredadwy, mewn gwirionedd, nad oedd y Gweinidog Iechyd yn gwybod beth oedd yn digwydd ac nad oedd ganddi unrhyw gysylltiad â’r mater? Os nad oedd hi’n gwybod, onid ydych yn gweld bod hynny’n broblem? Onid yw'n dangos anghymhwyster? Allwch chi fforddio bod eich Gweinidog Iechyd yn anghymwys?

The First Minister: I am sorry to have thrown the leader of Plaid Cymru off script—I know that I have done it once or twice before. Let us see what she is suggesting—that there is a conspiracy between the whole Welsh Government, the Welsh NHS Confederation, and a distinguished independent academic to produce a report that does Wales and the NHS down. Does she really believe that the Ministers that her party had in Government in the last Government had knowledge of every single e-mail that officials sent? Is that really what she is saying? I have seen the e-mails, and I challenge her now: she has had her third question, of course, but at some point over the course of the next few days, I challenge her to produce the evidence that backs up a serious allegation. I await to see what that evidence looks like. I have the e-mails here, and I challenge her this afternoon and over the next few days to point to the e-mails that support such a conclusion as she makes, which is that there was collaboration and collusion between several different levels of Government and an independent academic. I hear Plaid saying that he is not independent; frankly, I find it cowardly to besmirch the reputation of an independent academic, who has been critical of Welsh Government in years gone by, at a time when he cannot answer. [Interruption.]

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae'n ddrwg gennyf fy mod wedi taflu arweinydd Plaid Cymru oddi ar ei hechel. Gwn fy mod wedi gwneud hynny unwaith neu ddwywaith o'r blaen. Gadewch inni weld beth y mae'n ei awgrymu—fod cynllwyn rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru, Cydffederasiwn Gwasanaeth Iechyd Gwladol Cymru, ac ysgolhaig annibynnol o fri, i gynhyrchu adroddiad sy'n pardduo Cymru a'r GIG. A yw hi wir yn credu bod y Gweinidogion a oedd gan ei phlaid yn y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf yn gwybod am bob neges e-bost a anfonwyd gan ei swyddogion? Ai dyma y mae hi’n ei ddweud mewn gwirionedd? Rwyf wedi gweld y negeseuon e-bost, ac rwyf yn ei herio yn awr: cafodd ofyn ei thrydydd cwestiwn, wrth gwrs, ond ar ryw adeg yn ystod y dyddiau nesaf, rwy’n ei herio i gyflwyno’r dystiolaeth i ategu'r honiad difrifol Hwn. Byddaf yn aros i weld y dystiolaeth. Mae’r negeseuon e-bost gennyf yma, ac rwy’n ei herio y prynhawn yma a thros y dyddiau nesaf i dynnu sylw at y negeseuon e-bost sy'n cefnogi’r fath gasgliad ganddi, sef, bod cydweithio a chydgynllwynio rhwng gwahanol lefelau yn y Llywodraeth ac ysgolhaig annibynnol. Clywaf aelodau o Blaid Cymru’n dweud nad oedd yn annibynnol; a dweud y gwir, fe ddywedwn mai tro gwael fyddai pardduo enw da ysgolhaig annibynnol, sydd wedi bod yn feirniadol o Lywodraeth Cymru yn y gorffennol, a hynny ar adeg pan na all ymateb. [Tarfu.]

The Record

The Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Llywydd: Trefn.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): First Minister, the Oxford English Dictionary defines independent as

Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): Brif Weinidog, mae’r Oxford English Dictionary yn diffinio annibynnol fel

'free from outside control; not subject to another’s authority; not belonging to or supported by a political party’.

Yn rhydd o reolaeth o’r tu allan; nad yw’n ddarostyngedig i awdurdod un arall; nad yw’n perthyn i blaid wleidyddol nac yn cael ei gefnogi gan blaid wleidyddol.

When your Minister for health described 'The Case for Change’ report as being independent, which definition of the word was she using?

Pan oedd eich Gweinidog Iechyd yn disgrifio adroddiad 'Y Ddadl dros Newid' fel adroddiad annibynnol, pa ddiffiniad o’r gair a ddefnyddiwyd ganddi?

The First Minister: I challenge the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats to produce the evidence that backs up her suggestion that the report was not independent.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwy’n herio arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru i gynhyrchu'r dystiolaeth sy’n cefnogi ei hawgrym nad oedd yr adroddiad yn un annibynnol.  

Kirsty Williams: The Minister for health told us that the case for change had been

Kirsty Williams: Dywedodd y Gweinidog Iechyd wrthym fod yr achos dros newid wedi’i wneud

'approached…from a completely independent position…He has no partisan position to promote. This report constitutes strong evidence from a clinical perspective—not a political one.’

'o safbwynt gwbl annibynnol…Does ganddo ddim safbwynt bartisan i’w hyrwyddo. Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn cyflwyno tystiolaeth gref o bersbectif clinigol - nid o bersbectif gwleidyddol.’.

In fact, those e-mails show that her officials were hand in glove, nudging and influencing the author of that report to set out 'a persuasive vision’ of the Government’s agenda.

Yn wir, dengys y negeseuon e-bost hynny bod ei swyddogion yn cydweithio’n agos ag awdur yr adroddiad gan gynnig awgrymiadau a cheisio dylanwadu er mwyn  nodi gweledigaeth argyhoeddiadol o agenda'r Llywodraeth.

How can the public have any confidence that any proposals that are brought forward are on the basis of independent and academic evidence? [Interruption.]

Sut y gall y cyhoedd fod yn ffyddiog bod unrhyw gynigion a gaiff eu cyflwyno yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth  annibynnol ac academaidd? [Tarfu.]

The Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Llywydd: Trefn.

The First Minister: I have the e-mail in front of me and it says nothing of the sort. It does not behove a leader of a political party to distort the content of e-mails in order to support her tenuous case. I say to her once again: produce the evidence that there has been collusion, or has she just not read the e-mails?

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r e-bost gennyf o fy mlaen ac nid yw’n dweud dim o'r fath. Nid yw'n briodol bod arweinydd plaid wleidyddol yn gwyrdroi cynnwys negeseuon e-bost er mwyn cefnogi ei dadl fregus. Dywedaf wrthi unwaith eto am gynhyrchu'r dystiolaeth bod cydgynllwynio wedi digwydd, neu efallai nad yw hi wedi darllen y negeseuon e-bost wedi’r cyfan?

Kirsty Williams:  I have read the e-mails and they are a shocking indictment if your Minister knew about it or did not. First Minister, you have a Minister for health who gives handouts to health boards that have overspent their budgets and says that they are not bailouts. She sees local hospitals being stripped of services but describes it as not a downgrading. When her department puts pressure on an author of a report to make it 'more positive’, she describes that as 'independent’. How can you and the Welsh public have any confidence in a Minister for health that refuses to be straight with them?

Kirsty Williams: Rwyf wedi darllen y negeseuon e-bost ac maent yn ddamniol, os gwyddai eich Gweinidog am y mater neu beidio. Brif Weinidog Cymru, mae gennych Weinidog Iechyd sy'n rhoi arian ychwanegol i fyrddau iechyd sydd wedi gorwario eu cyllidebau gan ddweud nad arian i achub croen ydyw. Mae'n gweld gwasanaethau yn cael eu cymryd oddi ar ysbytai lleol, ond yn egluro nad yw’n enghraifft o israddio. Pan fydd ei hadran yn rhoi pwysau ar awdur adroddiad i wneud yr adroddiad yn fwy cadarnhaol, mae'n disgrifio hynny fel rhywbeth annibynnol. Sut allwch chi a'r cyhoedd yng Nghymru fod ag unrhyw hyder mewn Gweinidog Iechyd sy'n gwrthod bod yn onest â hwy?

The First Minister: That is the most pathetic contribution I have ever heard from any leader in this Chamber. I have asked her to produce the evidence that there was collusion. She has failed miserably. I have asked her to produce the evidence that the content of the report was somehow altered as a result of pressure. She has failed miserably. She is wise not to make these comments outside this Chamber, I would suggest. Once again, it is an example of the Liberal Democrats trying to throw mud around without ever getting down to the detail. I say to her once again: where is the evidence that there was any pressure or collusion? We should go beyond that cheap, political point scoring that the Liberal Democrats love so much.

Y Prif Weinidog: Dyna'r cyfraniad mwyaf truenus i mi ei glywed erioed gan unrhyw arweinydd yn y Siambr hon. Rwyf wedi gofyn iddi ddarparu’r dystiolaeth bod cydgynllwynio wedi digwydd. Mae hi wedi methu'n druenus. Rwyf wedi gofyn iddi ddarparu’r dystiolaeth bod cynnwys yr adroddiad wedi’i newid rywsut o ganlyniad i bwysau. Mae hi wedi methu'n druenus. Os caf awgrymu, mae’n ddoeth o beth nad yw hi’n gwneud y sylwadau hyn y tu allan i’r Siambr hon. Unwaith eto, mae'n enghraifft o’r  Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn ceisio taflu mwd heb nodi’r manylion. Dywedaf wrthi unwaith eto: ble mae'r dystiolaeth bod unrhyw bwysau neu gydgynllwynio wedi bod? Dylem anwybyddu’r arfer hwnnw o sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol, diwerth y mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol mor hoff ohono.

The Leader of the Opposition (Andrew R.T. Davies): First Minister, I have heard your comments to the other party leaders in this Chamber. It seems evident that there is enough doubt to pose a question in people’s mind as a result of these e-mails. For example, one of the e-mails to Chris Jones, who I believe is the medical director of NHS Wales and therefore a senior official within the Minister’s department, says

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Andrew R.T. Davies): Brif Weinidog, clywais eich sylwadau i arweinwyr y pleidiau eraill yn y Siambr hon. Mae'n ymddangos ei bod yn amlwg bod digon o amheuaeth i beri i bobl ofyn cwestiynau, o ganlyniad i’r negeseuon e-bost hyn. Er enghraifft, roedd un o'r negeseuon hyn at Chris Jones, sy'n gyfarwyddwr meddygol yn GIG Cymru fe gredaf, ac felly dywed uwch swyddog yn adran y Gweinidog:

'As we’ve discussed, a crucial piece in the jigsaw—the argument we can’t stay as we are, just look at the outcomes’.

Fel y trafodwyd gennym, darn hanfodol yn y jig-so—y ddadl na allwn aros fel yr ydym, nid oes ond angen edrych ar y canlyniadau.

They are talking as a collective—the academic and the civil servant. These e-mails require explanation because they cast sufficient doubt in people’s minds that this is a sufficiently independent report on which to base the Government’s conclusions on the Welsh NHS.

Maent yn siarad fel un côr—yr ysgolhaig a’r gwas sifil. Mae angen esboniad ynghylch y negeseuon e-bost hyn gan eu bod yn peri digon o amheuaeth ym meddyliau pobl fod hwn yn adroddiad digon annibynnol i fod yn sail i gasgliadau’r Llywodraeth ar GIG Cymru.

1.45 p.m.

 

The First Minister: Of course we cannot stay as we are; we have been saying that for weeks and months, so why should that come as a surprise to the leader of the opposition? Once again, I say to him that if he can point to anything in this e-mail trail that suggests that the content was altered, that pressure was put on Marcus Longley, or that the content of the report was altered, then I await the results of the evidence that he purports to offer.

Y Prif Weinidog: Wrth gwrs ni allwn aros fel yr ydym; buom yn dweud hynny ers wythnosau a misoedd, felly pam ddylai hynny fod yn syndod i arweinydd yr wrthblaid? Unwaith eto, rwyf yn dweud wrtho os yw’n gallu cyfeirio at unrhyw beth yn y llwybr e-bost sy’n awgrymu bod y cynnwys wedi cael ei newid, bod pwysau wedi cael ei roi ar Marcus Longley, neu fod cynnwys yr adroddiad wedi cael ei newid, yna rwyf yn disgwyl canlyniadau’r dystiolaeth y mae’n honni ei fod yn ei chynnig.

Andrew R.T. Davies: With respect, First Minister, I quoted verbatim from one of the e-mails. I have a copy here, as do you. I quoted from it verbatim. Do you not agree that that type of language, if analysed by someone in a community that is facing the closure of their accident and emergency department or another medical facility, would put sufficient doubt in their mind that your Government is supposedly basing these proposals on an independent report? I put it to you, First Minister, that this report is clearly holed below the water line and, therefore, any conclusions from it cannot stand up to scrutiny.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Gyda pharch, Brif Weinidog, dyfynnais air am air o un o’r e-byst. Mae gennyf gopi yma, fel sydd gennych chithau. Dyfynnais ohono air am air. Oni chytunwch fod y math hwnnw o iaith, pe bai’n cael ei dadansoddi gan rywun mewn cymuned sy’n wynebu’r ffaith bod ei adran damweiniau ac achosion brys neu gyfleuster meddygol arall yn cau, yn rhoi digon o amheuaeth yn ei feddwl bod eich Llywodraeth chi, yn ôl pob sôn, yn seilio’r cynigion hyn ar adroddiad annibynnol? Rwyf yn awgrymu i chi, Brif Weinidog, fod yr adroddiad hwn wedi cael ei danseilio’n enbyd ac, felly, ni all unrhyw gasgliadau ohono wrthsefyll unrhyw waith craffu.

The First Minister: That is the most ridiculous comment that I have ever heard, and I will say why: let us see what a fair-minded, objective, rational person would do after looking at this e-mail trail. This is the most tenuous political story that I have come across in 13 years in electoral politics. Once again, I say to him: where is the evidence that the content was altered? Where is the evidence that Marcus Longley was put under pressure? Where is the evidence to support the words of his health spokesman—he is not even here, so cannot answer for himself—who described Marcus Longley as a 'Government stooge’; that is how he described him. What I heard this morning on the radio was a Conservative health spokesperson doing his best to wreck the academic reputation of Professor Marcus Longley. I have no objection to attacks on politicians; we all expect give and take—[Interruption.]

Y Prif Weinidog: Dyna’r sylw mwyaf chwerthinllyd a glywais erioed, a dyma pam: gadewch inni weld beth fyddai rhywun teg ei feddwl, gwrthrychol, rhesymol yn ei wneud ar ôl edrych ar y llwybr e-bost hwn. Dyma’r stori wleidyddol fwyaf disylwedd y deuthum ar ei thraws mewn 13 mlynedd mewn gwleidyddiaeth etholiadol. Unwaith eto, rwyf yn dweud wrtho: ble mae’r dystiolaeth bod y cynnwys wedi cael ei newid? Ble mae’r dystiolaeth bod Marcus Longley wedi cael ei roi o dan bwysau? Ble mae’r dystiolaeth i gefnogi geiriau ei lefarydd iechyd—nad yw hyd yn oed yma, felly ni all ateb drosto’i hun—a ddisgrifiodd Marcus Longley fel gwas bach y Llywodraeth; dyna sut y gwnaeth ei ddisgrifio. Yr hyn a glywais y bore yma ar y radio oedd llefarydd iechyd y Ceidwadwyr yn gwneud ei orau i ddinistrio enw da academaidd yr Athro Marcus Longley. Nid wyf yn gwrthwynebu ymosodiadau ar wleidyddion; rydym i gyd yn ei roi a’i gymryd—[Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. Leighton Andrews, order.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Leighton Andrews, trefn.

The First Minister: We all expect give and take in the robust exchanges that we have in this Chamber and outside, but I thought that attacking an academic was well below the belt. I heard his comments and all that I can say is that, judging by conversations that I have had this morning, he would do well to take legal advice. I also say to the BBC that, as far as it is concerned, it needs to examine its position as well, because, at 11 a.m. today, a clearly defamatory statement appeared on the BBC website. That is a matter for it to explain in the future. It is cowardice to attack the reputation of an academic, to try to suggest that he is not independent, to ruin his reputation in the academic world without there being any comeback from him. I ask the leader of the opposition whether his party is well served by a health spokesperson who shows such a lack of judgment, such a lack of sense, and such a slovenly approach to the facts.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym i gyd yn disgwyl ei roi a’i gymryd yn y dadleuon grymus a gawn yn y Siambr hon a’r tu allan iddi, ond tybiais fod ymosodiad ar academydd yn mynd yn llawer yn rhy bell. Clywais ei sylwadau a’r cyfan y gallaf ddweud yw y byddai’n dda o beth iddo gymryd cyngor cyfreithiol, a barnu o’r sgyrsiau a gefais y bore yma. Rwyf hefyd yn dweud wrth y BBC, cyn belled ag y mae ef yn y cwestiwn, bod angen iddo edrych ar ei safbwynt hefyd, oherwydd, am 11 a.m. heddiw, ymddangosodd datganiad ar wefan y BBC a oedd yn amlwg yn ddifenwol. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y bydd yn rhaid iddo ei egluro yn y dyfodol. Mae’n llwfr ymosod ar enw da academydd, ceisio awgrymu nad yw’n annibynnol, a difetha ei enw da yn y byd academaidd heb fod unrhyw gyfle iddo ymateb. Gofynnaf i arweinydd yr wrthblaid a yw ei blaid ar ei hennill o gael llefarydd iechyd sy’n dangos y fath ddiffyg doethineb, y fath ddiffyg synnwyr, a’r fath ymagwedd ddi-hid at y ffeithiau.

Andrew R.T. Davies: First Minister, stop trying to deflect from the matter of your own Minister for health’s competence. [Interruption.] No, this is my third question; you clearly cannot count, either. The point here, First Minister, is your Minister for health’s competence and whether she was aware of the facts that are contained within these e-mails, which were supposedly helping to form the basis of an independent report. You are trying to turn this on a professor from a university and moving it away—[Interruption.]

Andrew R.T. Davies: Brif Weinidog, rhowch y gorau i geisio gwyro o’r mater o dan sylw, sef cymhwysedd eich Gweinidog iechyd. [Torri ar draws.] Na, dyma fy nhrydydd cwestiwn; mae’n amlwg nad ydych yn gallu cyfrif, ychwaith. Y pwynt yma, Brif Weinidog, yw cymhwysedd eich Gweinidog a pa un a oedd hi’n ymwybodol o’r ffeithiau sydd wedi’u cynnwys yn yr e-byst hyn, a oedd, yn ôl pob sôn, yn helpu i lunio sail i adroddiad annibynnol. Rydych yn ceisio troi hyn ar athro prifysgol a’i symud oddi wrth—[Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. I am very interested in what the leader of the opposition is saying.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr mewn clywed yr hyn sydd gan arweinydd yr wrthblaid i’w ddweud.

Andrew R.T. Davies: It is for quite clear reasons that you are trying to do this. This is typical Welsh Labour trying to bully itself out of a hole. The fact of the matter is—[Interruption.] I hear the Ed Balls of the Assembly yapping away, but he would do well to listen.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Mae’n amlwg pam eich bod yn ceisio gwneud hyn. Mae hyn yn enghraifft nodweddiadol o Lafur Cymru yn ceisio bwlio ei hun allan o dwll. Y gwir amdani yw—[Torri ar draws.] Clywaf Ed Balls y Cynulliad yn cyfarth yn y gornel, ond byddai’n syniad da iddo wrando.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Andrew R.T. Davies, are you eventually coming to a question?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Andrew R.T. Davies, a ydych yn dod i gwestiwn yn y pen draw?

Andrew R.T. Davies: I am coming to a question.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Rwyf yn dod i gwestiwn.

First Minister, will you not oblige the scrutiny of this institution by making available the Minister for Health and Social Services and her officials to the Health and Social Care Committee so that they can be scrutinised on this, along with the NHS Confederation and, should Marcus Longley choose to do so, he could also come before that committee so that the whole of this jigsaw can be put together? This is about communities’ healthcare provision, which touches raw nerves across the whole of Wales.

Brif Weinidog, oni wnewch chi gymwynas o ran gwaith craffu’r sefydliad hwn drwy sicrhau bod y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a’i swyddogion ar gael i’r Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol fel y gellir craffu ar eu gwaith ar hyn, ynghyd â Chydffederasiwn y GIG a, phe bai Marcus Longley yn dewis gwneud hynny, gallai ef hefyd ddod gerbron y pwyllgor hwnnw fel y gellir rhoi’r holl jig-so hwn at ei gilydd? Mae hyn yn ymwneud â’r ddarpariaeth gofal iechyd sydd gan gymunedau, pwnc sy’n ennyn teimladau cryf ledled Cymru.

The First Minister: Of course the Minister for health will be made available; that is what scrutiny is all about. We do not run away from scrutiny. However, I think that I just heard the leader of the opposition accuse me of besmirching the reputation of Professor Marcus Longley. His own health spokesperson, who is not here, was on Radio Wales this morning accusing Marcus Longley of conniving—that was the word that he used—with the NHS Confederation and the Welsh Government. He could not have done more to try to wreck the academic reputation of Professor Marcus Longley, and he accuses me of doing it. The reality is that he should look very carefully at his own health spokesperson and what he said and then decide whether, in fact, he should remain in his job.

Y Prif Weinidog: Wrth gwrs y bydd y Gweinidog iechyd ar gael; dyna beth yw ystyr craffu. Nid ydym yn rhedeg i ffwrdd o waith craffu. Fodd bynnag, tybiaf fy mod newydd glywed arweinydd yr wrthblaid yn fy nghyhuddo o bardduo enw da yr Athro Marcus Longley. Roedd ei lefarydd iechyd ei hun, nad yw yma, ar Radio Wales y bore yma yn cyhuddo Marcus Longley o gydgynllwynio—dyna’r gair a ddefnyddiodd—gyda Cydffederasiwn y GIG a Llywodraeth Cymru. Ni allai fod wedi gwneud mwy i geisio dinistrio enw da academaidd yr Athro Marcus Longley, ac mae’n fy nghyhuddo i o wneud hynny. Y gwir amdani yw y dylai edrych yn ofalus iawn ar ei lefarydd iechyd ei hun a’r hyn a ddywedodd ac yna penderfynu a ddylai, mewn gwirionedd, aros yn ei swydd.

The Presiding Officer: Thank you. We now move to a quieter part of the agenda, perhaps. Question 3 is from Andrew R.T. Davies, again. [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr. Rydym yn awr yn symud i ran dawelach o’r agenda, o bosibl. Daw cwestiwn 3 gan Andrew R.T. Davies, eto. [Chwerthin.]

Leighton Andrews: Try again. [Laughter.]

Leighton Andrews: Rhowch gynnig arall arni.  [Chwerthin.]

Andrew R.T. Davies: I do not think that I need to try again. We saw what the First Minister was up to.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Ni chredaf fod angen imi roi cynnig arall arni. Gwelsom yr hyn yr oedd y Prif Weinidog yn ei wneud.

Blaenoriaethau ar gyfer yr Economi

Priorities for the Economy

3. Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu ei flaenoriaethau presennol ar gyfer yr economi yn rhanbarth Canol De Cymru. OAQ(4)0626(FM)

3. Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the First Minister outline his current priorities for the economy in the South Wales Central region. OAQ(4)0626(FM)

The First Minister: I am glad that the leader of the opposition has thrown in the towel on that issue. My priorities for the economy across Wales are set out in the programme for government.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwyf yn falch bod arweinydd yr wrthblaid wedi rhoi’r ffidil yn y to ar y mater hwnnw. Mae fy mlaenoriaethau ar gyfer yr economi ledled Cymru wedi’u nodi yn y rhaglen lywodraethu.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I can confirm, First Minister, that the leader of the opposition has clearly not thrown in the towel on that issue and by your performance this afternoon—

Andrew R.T. Davies: Gallaf gadarnhau, Brif Weinidog, nad yw arweinydd yr wrthblaid wedi rhoi’r ffidil yn y tô ar y mater hwnnw ac ar sail eich perfformiad y prynhawn yma—

The Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Llywydd: Trefn.

Andrew R.T. Davies: He asked the question.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Ef a ofynnodd y cwestiwn.

The Presiding Officer: Order. You are now speaking—as I should remind the First Minister—as Andrew R.T. Davies, the Member for South Wales Central.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Rydych yn awr yn siarad—fel y dylwn atgoffa’r Prif Weinidog—fel Andrew R.T. Davies, yr Aelod dros Ganol De Cymru.

Andrew R.T. Davies: First Minister, can you outline how much of the £40 million that you announced in the March fund for small and medium-sized businesses has actually found its way to small businesses in South Wales Central?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Brif Weinidog, a wnewch chi amlinellu faint o’r £40 miliwn a gyhoeddwyd gennych yn y gronfa mis Mawrth ar gyfer busnesau bach a chanolig sydd wedi cyrraedd busnesau bach yng Nghanol De Cymru mewn gwirionedd?

The First Minister: I will write to the Member on South Wales Central, but what I can say is that it will support the creation of more than 4,000 jobs. It was a very popular fund among the SME community.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddaf yn ysgrifennu at yr Aelod ar Ganol De Cymru, ond yr hyn y gallaf ei ddweud yw y bydd yn cefnogi’r broses o greu mwy na 4,000 o swyddi. Roedd yn gronfa boblogaidd iawn ymhlith y gymuned busnesau bach a chanolig.

The Presiding Officer: I call another Member for South Wales Central, Leanne Wood.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf ar Aelod arall dros Ganol De Cymru, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood: I have received representations from serving police officers in South Wales Central who are concerned about the implications of the Winsor report and the economic impact on our area. The Winsor report recommends cuts to pay and pensions, allowing chief constables to make compulsory redundancies and the introduction of direct entry recruitment to the higher ranks of the police force. Recently, I met the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Kenny MacAskill MSP, who has rejected the Winsor report, much to the delight of police officers in Scotland. First Minister, why will you not pursue the devolution of the police, when the alternative is to allow Theresa May to impose her will on Welsh police services?

Leanne Wood: Rwyf wedi cael sylwadau gan swyddogion yr heddlu yng Nghanol De Cymru sy’n pryderu am oblygiadau adroddiad Winsor a’r effaith economaidd ar ein hardal. Mae adroddiad Winsor yn argymell toriadau i gyflogau a phensiynau, gan ganiatáu i brif gwnstabliaid wneud diswyddiadau gorfodol a chyflwyno proses recriwtio mynediad uniongyrchol i rengoedd uwch llu’r heddlu. Yn ddiweddar, cwrddais ag Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yr Alban dros Gyfiawnder, Kenny MacAskill MSP, sydd wedi gwrthod adroddiad Winsor, er mawr lawenydd i swyddogion yr heddlu yn yr Alban. Brif Weinidog, pam na wnewch chi geisio datganoli’r heddlu, gan mai’r dewis arall yw caniatáu i Theresa May wthio ei hewyllys ar wasanaethau heddlu Cymru?

The First Minister: It is an important issue that the leader of Plaid Cymru raises, and one that will be dealt with through Silk part 2. As a Government, we are developing our response to Silk part 2, which will include proposals for devolution in a number of areas.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae arweinydd Plaid Cymru yn codi mater pwysig, a fydd yn cael ei drafod drwy Silk rhan 2. Fel Llywodraeth, rydym yn datblygu ein hymateb i Silk rhan 2, a fydd yn cynnwys cynigion i ddatganoli mewn nifer o feysydd.

The Presiding Officer: I call Eluned Parrott, another Member for South Wales Central.

Y Llywydd: Galwaf ar Eluned Parrott, Aelod arall dros Ganol De Cymru.

Eluned Parrott: An announcement on the electrification of the Valleys lines is imminent, First Minister. If this is successful, it will have a massive impact on the economy of South Wales Central. However, critical to the success of any transport system is that its different elements link together effectively. What plans does the Welsh Government have to support the integration of bus and rail services across South Wales Central? Have new scenario plans been developed to take maximum advantage of electrification if we get it?

Eluned Parrott: Mae cyhoeddiad ar drydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd ar fin cael ei wneud, Brif Weinidog. Os yw hyn yn llwyddiannus, bydd yn cael effaith enfawr ar economi Canol De Cymru. Fodd bynnag, hanfod llwyddiant unrhyw system drafnidiaeth yw bod ei helfennau gwahanol yn cysylltu gyda’i gilydd yn effeithiol. Pa gynlluniau sydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru i gefnogi’r gwaith o integreiddio gwasanaethau bws a rheilffordd ledled Canol De Cymru? A ddatblygwyd cynlluniau senario newydd i fanteisio i’r eithaf ar drydaneiddio os byddwn yn ei gael?

The First Minister: Yes, we will have to see what the announcement on electrification will be. As a Government, our position is that we see the Valleys lines electrification, for example, as including the Llynfi valley line, the Ebbw valley line and the Vale of Glamorgan line. Otherwise, trains that run through those places from destinations such as Merthyr or Aberdare would not be able to run through to Barry Island in the way that they do now. However, clearly, when that opportunity presents itself, if it does, we will look to see how integration can be maximised.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd, bydd yn rhaid inni weld beth fydd y cyhoeddiad ar drydaneiddio. Fel Llywodraeth, ein safbwynt yw bod trydaneiddio rheilffyrdd y Cymoedd, er enghraifft, yn cynnwys llinell dyffryn Llynfi, llinell Glyn Ebwy a llinell Bro Morgannwg. Fel arall, ni fyddai trenau sy’n rhedeg drwy’r lleoedd hynny o gyrchfannau fel Merthyr neu Aberdâr yn gallu rhedeg yn eu blaenau i Ynys y Barri yn y modd y maent yn ei wneud yn awr. Fodd bynnag, yn amlwg, pan fydd y cyfle hwnnw’n codi, os y bydd, byddwn yn edrych i weld sut y gellir ei integreiddio i’r eithaf.

Diwylliant, Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon

Culture, Media and Sport

4. Mohammad Asghar: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’u cael gyda Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y DU o’r Adran dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon ar ôl Etholiad Cyffredinol 2010. OAQ(4)0616(FM)

4. Mohammad Asghar: What discussions has the First Minister had with UK Government Ministers from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport since the 2010 General Election. OAQ(4)0616(FM)

The First Minister: We have regular discussions with the UK Government regarding culture, media and sport.

Y Prif Weinidog: Cawn drafodaethau rheolaidd gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch diwylliant, y cyfryngau a chwaraeon.

Mohammad Asghar: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Local television has the potential to provide viewers with a local perspective on issues that affect them daily as well as being a powerful tool for promoting community engagement. Last year, the UK Government consulted on its local media action plan for local TV stations, including at six locations in Wales. What discussions has the First Minister’s Government had with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport with regard to promoting local television in Wales?

Mohammad Asghar: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog. Mae potensial gan deledu lleol i roi safbwynt lleol i wylwyr ar faterion sy’n effeithio arnynt bob dydd yn ogystal â bod yn ffordd rymus o hyrwyddo ymgysylltiad â’r gymuned. Y llynedd, ymgynghorodd Llywodraeth y DU ar ei chynllun gweithredu cyfryngau lleol i orsafoedd teledu lleol, gan gynnwys mewn chwe lleoliad yng Nghymru. Pa drafodaethau a gafodd Llywodraeth y Prif Weinidog gyda’r Adran dros Ddiwylliant, y Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon am hyrwyddo teledu lleol yng Nghymru?

The First Minister: I certainly discussed the matter with Jeremy Hunt, when I met him. I am sceptical that local TV would be successful in six locations across Wales. We know that it has a chequered history in other parts of the UK. However, anything that broadens broadcast output in Wales is to be welcomed.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwyf yn sicr wedi trafod y mater gyda Jeremy Hunt, pan gyfarfum ag ef. Rwyf yn amheus y byddai teledu lleol yn llwyddiannus mewn chwe lleoliad ledled Cymru. Gwyddom fod ganddo hanes brith mewn rhannau eraill o’r DU. Fodd bynnag, mae unrhyw beth sy’n ehangu’r allbwn darlledu yng Nghymru i’w groesawu.

Mike Hedges: Does the First Minister welcome the news from UEFA that Cardiff is set to hold the 2014 UEFA Super Cup, and can he indicate what arrangements the Welsh Government is making to ensure that this major sporting event has the potential to benefit the wider south Wales economy?

Mike Hedges: A yw’r Prif Weinidog yn croesawu’r newyddion gan UEFA y bydd Caerdydd yn cynnal Super Cup UEFA yn 2014, ac a wnaiff nodi pa drefniadau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu gwneud i sicrhau bod gan y digwyddiad chwaraeon mawr hwn y potensial i ddod a budd i economi ehangach de Cymru?

The Record

The First Minister: I very much welcome it. It gives us the opportunity to stage a major European event and to put a stronger marker down for events like the Champions League final. We will be discussing with the Football Association of Wales how we can best maximise the benefits beyond the immediate area of Cardiff.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwyf yn ei groesawu’n fawr. Mae’n rhoi cyfle inni gynnal digwyddiad Ewropeaidd mawr ac i osod sail gryfach ar gyfer cynnal digwyddiadau fel gêm derfynol y Champions League. Byddwn yn trafod gyda Chymdeithas Bêl-droed Cymru sut y gallwn wneud y gorau o’r buddion y tu hwnt i ardal gyfagos Caerdydd.

Bethan Jenkins: Brif Weinidog, rydym i gyd yn y Siambr hon yn gwybod am y problemau a ddaeth yn sgîl negodi cyllideb S4C a thrwydded y BBC. A oes trafodaethau wedi bod ynglŷn â chytundeb hirdymor wedi i’r drwydded hon ddod i ben? Pa drafodaethau rydych wedi’u cael gyda DCMS ac S4C gyda’i gilydd i sicrhau na fydd yn bosibl i’r un problemau godi yn y dyfodol?

Bethan Jenkins: First Minister, all of us in the Chamber know about the problems that arose as a result of negotiating the S4C budget and the BBC’s licence. Have there been any discussions about the long-term agreement, once this licence comes to an end? What discussions have you had with DCMS and S4C together to ensure that the same problems cannot arise in the future?

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwyf wedi siarad am y sefyllfa gyda’r BBC a chydag S4C. Mae’r sefyllfa wedi cael ei datrys, mewn ffordd, yn y tymor byr, ond mae’n wir bod mwy o waith i’w wneud er mwyn sicrhau dyfodol gwasanaeth S4C. Rydym yn trafod hyn gydag S4C a chyda’r BBC.

The First Minister: I have spoken to the BBC and to S4C about this situation. The situation has, in a way, been resolved in the short term, but it is true that more work remains to be done in order to secure the future of the S4C service. We are discussing this with S4C and with the BBC.

Kenneth Skates: First Minister, in terms of sport, the second Etape Cymru closed-road cycling event will take place this September in Wrexham and Denbighshire, building on last year’s excellent event, which raised an estimated £1.8 million for the local economy. Will you look at the growth potential of the Etape Cymru event and commit the Welsh Government to helping to expand this and other complementary sports events, which could generate significant leisure tourism revenue in north Wales?

Kenneth Skates: Brif Weinidog, o ran chwaraeon, bydd yr ail ddigwyddiad beicio ar ffyrdd sydd wedi’u cau gan Etape Cymru yn cael ei gynnal ym mis Medi eleni yn Wrecsam a Sir Ddinbych, gan adeiladu ar ddigwyddiad ardderchog y llynedd, a gododd £1.8 miliwn i’r economi leol yn ôl yr amcangyfrifon. A wnewch chi edrych ar botensial y digwyddiad Etape Cymru i dyfu ac ymrwymo Llywodraeth Cymru i helpu i ehangu’r digwyddiad hwn a digwyddiadau chwaraeon tebyg eraill, oherwydd gallent gynhyrchu refeniw twristiaeth hamdden sylweddol yn y gogledd?

The First Minister: Through the major events unit, we seek to support major sporting and cultural events in Wales and we would always look to support an event that is successful and that has the potential to grow.

Y Prif Weinidog: Drwy’r uned digwyddiadau mawr, rydym yn ceisio cefnogi digwyddiadau chwaraeon a diwylliannol mawr yng Nghymru a byddem bob amser yn edrych i gefnogi digwyddiad sy’n llwyddiannus ac sydd â’r potensial i dyfu.

Incwm Isel a Budd-Daliadau

Low Incomes and Benefits

5. Julie James: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu pa gymorth sydd yn y Rhaglen Lywodraethu i gefnogi pobl sydd ar incwm isel a budd-daliadau yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0622(FM)

5. Julie James: Will the First Minister highlight what help is contained in the Programme for Government to support people on low incomes and benefits in Wales. OAQ(4)0622(FM)

The First Minister: We recently launched the 'Tackling Poverty Action Plan 2012-2016’, which demonstrates how the Welsh Government plays a vital role in improving the lives of low-income families.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn ddiweddar, gwnaethom lansio’r 'Cynllun Gweithredu ar gyfer Trechu Tlodi 2012-2016’, sy’n dangos sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn chwarae rôl allweddol er mwyn gwella bywydau teuluoedd sydd ag incwm isel.

Julie James: I very much welcome the support that you have highlighted in our programme for government, but I am very concerned by figures highlighted by the BBC last week, which identified an estimated 9,010 families, including 17,115 children, that will lose nearly £4,000 a year or £73 a week under the reconfiguration of the working families tax credit. I was also very dismayed by Cameron’s proposals that people under the age of 25 might lose the right to housing benefit as part of a programme to cut the welfare bill, showing that he has no understanding at all of any ordinary family’s circumstances. First Minister, what can we do in Wales to further assist people on low incomes and benefits, should these terrible proposals come to fruition?

Julie James: Rwyf yn croesawu’n fawr y gefnogaeth rydych wedi tynnu sylw ati yn ein rhaglen lywodraethu, ond rwyf yn bryderus iawn am y ffigurau a amlygwyd gan y BBC yr wythnos diwethaf, a nododd yr amcangyfrifir y bydd 9,010 o deuluoedd, gan gynnwys 17,115 o blant, yn colli bron i £4,000 y flwyddyn neu £73 yr wythnos o dan y broses o ail-gyflunio’r credyd treth i deuluoedd. Roeddwn hefyd yn siomedig iawn gyda chynigion Cameron y gallai pobl o dan 25 oed golli’r hawl i fudd-dal tai fel rhan o’r rhaglen i gwtogi’r bil lles, sy’n dangos nad yw’n deall amgylchiadau unrhyw deulu cyffredin o gwbl. Brif Weinidog, beth allwn ni ei wneud ymhellach yng Nghymru i helpu pobl ar incwm isel a budd-daliadau pe bai’r cynigion ofnadwy hyn yn cael eu rhoi ar waith?

The First Minister: In the current climate, financial exclusion looks set to remain a difficult problem to overcome. We are doing all that we can to help financially vulnerable households by taking forward our financial inclusion strategy, which widens access to affordable credit.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn yr hinsawdd bresennol, mae’n edrych yn debyg y bydd allgáu ariannol yn parhau i fod yn broblem sy’n anodd i’w goresgyn. Rydym yn gwneud popeth y gallwn ei wneud i helpu aelwydydd sy’n agored i niwed yn ariannol drwy roi ein strategaeth cynhwysiant ariannol ar waith, sy’n ehangu mynediad i gredyd fforddiadwy.

Janet Finch-Saunders: First Minister, few could disagree that we must fight the causes of poverty at their source. In your programme for government update, you state ad nauseum that devolved policy areas are crucially important in this regard in the longer term. Your party’s response in devolved policy areas, however, has been 13 years of broken promises, endless strategies, many intentions and mere lip service. Will you reassure the people of Wales that, in the areas of policy over which you have direct control, you will raise standards during this Assembly term?

Janet Finch-Saunders: Brif Weinidog, prin y byddai neb yn anghytuno bod yn rhaid inni frwydro yn erbyn yr hyn sy’n achosi tlodi wrth ei wraidd. Yn eich diweddariad ar y rhaglen lywodraethu, rydych yn nodi ad nauseum fod y meysydd polisi datganoledig yn hanfodol bwysig yn hyn o beth yn y tymor hwy. Fodd bynnag, ymateb eich plaid mewn meysydd polisi datganoledig yw 13 mlynedd o dorri addewidion, strategaethau diddiwedd, nifer o fwriadau a siarad gwag yn unig. A wnewch chi roi sicrwydd i bobl Cymru y byddwch, yn y meysydd polisi y mae gennych reolaeth uniongyrchol drostynt, yn codi safonau yn ystod tymor y Cynulliad hwn?

The First Minister: I think that the people of Wales have confidence in what we are doing here. The opinion poll last week shows that. We know that, if there was an election now, the party opposite would, at least, be on a par with UKIP.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwyf yn credu bod gan bobl Cymru hyder yn yr hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud yma. Dangosodd arolwg barn yr wythnos diwethaf hynny. Rydym yn gwybod, pe bai etholiad yn awr, y byddai’r blaid gyferbyn yn gydradd, o leiaf, ag UKIP.

Jocelyn Davies: First Minister, with a diminishing capital budget, I am sure that you would agree that finding new ways to fund capital projects is a priority in order to boost the economy, to aid economic growth and to create jobs. What is your view on the potential future use of private finance initiatives?

Jocelyn Davies: Brif Weinidog, gyda chyllideb gyfalaf sy’n prysur ddiflannu, rwyf yn siŵr y byddech yn cytuno ei bod yn flaenoriaeth canfod ffyrdd newydd i ariannu prosiectau cyfalaf er mwyn rhoi hwb i’r economi, cynorthwyo twf economaidd a chreu swyddi. Beth yw eich barn am y posibilrwydd o ddefnyddio mentrau cyllid preifat yn y dyfodol?

The First Minister: We are very sceptical of PFI. We know that its past history has shown that it comes at great expense. Nevertheless, we are exploring ways of levering as much as possible into our capital programme and I know that the Minister for Finance is exploring those options at the moment.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym yn amheus iawn o PFI. Gwyddom fod ei hanes yn y gorffennol yn dangos ei fod yn ddrud iawn. Serch hynny, rydym yn archwilio ffyrdd o ysgogi cymaint â phosibl o arian i mewn i’n rhaglen gyfalaf a gwn fod y Gweinidog dros Gyllid yn archwilio’r opsiynau hynny ar hyn o bryd.

Blaenoriaethau

Priorities

6. William Graham: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am flaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer Dwyrain De Cymru. OAQ(4)0629(FM)

6. William Graham: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s priorities for South Wales East. OAQ(4)0629(FM)

The First Minister: Our priorities are found in the programme for government.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae ein blaenoriaethau i’w cael yn y rhaglen lywodraethu.

William Graham: Thank you for your rather predictable answer, First Minister. What is your Government’s policy for reassuring the general public about the installation of incinerators? There is a public process to go through, but presumably your Government has a policy of reassurance.

William Graham: Diolch ichi am eich ateb, a oedd braidd yn rhagweladwy, Brif Weinidog. Beth yw polisi eich Llywodraeth ar dawelu meddwl y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol ynghylch gosod llosgyddion? Mae proses gyhoeddus i fynd drwyddi, ond rhagdybiaf fod gan eich Llywodraeth bolisi o roi sicrwydd.  

 

2.00 p.m.

 

The First Minister: Of course, any incinerators or any energy-from-waste plants would have to operate within the strict guidance laid down by the law and the Environment Agency. Although we seek to promote recycling first and foremost, as well as reuse, there will still be a residue of waste that has to be dealt with, either through a diminishing stock of landfill sites or through energy-from-waste plants.

Y Prif Weinidog: Wrth gwrs, byddai’n rhaid i unrhyw losgyddion neu weithfeydd ynni-o-wastraff weithredu o fewn y canllawiau llym a osodir gan y gyfraith ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd. Er ein bod yn ceisio hyrwyddo ailgylchu yn bennaf oll, yn ogystal ag ail-ddefnyddio, bydd gweddillion gwastraff yn parhau i orfod cael eu trin, naill ai drwy gyflenwad o safleoedd tirlenwi sy’n lleihau neu drwy weithfeydd ynni-o-wastraff.

Lindsay Whittle: Developing the prosperity of the south-east relies heavily on transport infrastructure in order to move goods and people in and out of the area and to attract businesses and jobs into the region. It is understandable, therefore, that businesses and people in the immediate area are concerned at the proposals in option D of the M4 corridor enhancement measures programme to close access to the eastbound motorway junctions 25 and 26. What assurances can you give that any infrastructure developments will not be made at the expense of the economy?

Lindsay Whittle: Mae datblygu ffyniant y de-ddwyrain yn dibynnu’n fawr ar seilwaith trafnidiaeth er mwyn symud nwyddau a phobl i mewn i’r ardal ac allan ohoni ac i ddenu busnesau a swyddi i’r ardal. Mae’n ddealladwy, felly, fod busnesau a phobl yn yr ardal gyfagos yn pryderu ynghylch y cynigion yn opsiwn D o’r rhaglen mesurau i wella coridor yr M4 i gau’r mynediad i gyffyrdd 25 a 26 y draffordd wrth deithio tua’r dwyrain. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch chi ei roi na fydd unrhyw ddatblygiadau seilwaith yn cael eu gwneud ar draul yr economi?

The First Minister: Infrastructure developments are designed to enhance the economy. Where there are options, we will listen carefully to any views that are given on those options during the consultation process.

Y Prif Weinidog: Diben datblygiadau seilwaith yw gwella’r economi. Lle mae opsiynau, byddwn yn gwrando’n astud ar unrhyw farn a roddir ar yr opsiynau hynny yn ystod y broses ymgynghori.

The Record

Polisi Awtistiaeth

Autism Policy

7. Peter Black: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am bolisi Awtistiaeth Llywodraeth Cymru. OAQ(4)0617(FM)

7. Peter Black: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s Autism policy. OAQ(4)0617(FM)

The First Minister: Our autistic spectrum disorder strategic action plan has delivered the necessary infrastructure within statutory authorities, enabled training for professionals and raised awareness of ASD.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae ein cynllun gweithredu strategol ar anhwylder sbectrwm awtistig wedi cyflenwi’r seilwaith angenrheidiol o fewn awdurdodau statudol, wedi hwyluso hyfforddiant i weithwyr proffesiynol ac wedi codi ymwybyddiaeth ynghylch ASD.

Peter Black: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. You will know that it has also raised awareness of some of the failures in that plan. The National Autistic Society in Wales, for example, says that 47% of parents in Wales wait longer than three years for a diagnosis, compared with 34% in England. I have casework involving constituents who have failed to get the expert advice that they need because there is no autism expert based in that part of Wales. What is the action plan doing to put that right and what sort of timescale are we looking at?

Peter Black: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog. Byddwch yn gwybod ei fod hefyd wedi codi ymwybyddiaeth ynghylch rhai o’r methiannau yn y cynllun hwnnw. Mae’r Gymdeithas Awtistiaeth Genedlaethol yng Nghymru, er enghraifft, yn dweud bod 47% o rieni yng Nghymru yn aros yn hwy na thair blynedd i gael diagnosis, o’i gymharu â 34% yn Lloegr. Mae gennyf fi waith achos sy’n ymwneud ag etholwyr sydd wedi methu â chael y cyngor arbenigol sydd ei angen arnynt gan nad oes unrhyw arbenigwr awtistiaeth yn y rhan honno o Gymru. Beth y mae’r cynllun gweithredu yn ei wneud i unioni hynny a pha fath o amserlen sydd gennych mewn golwg?

The First Minister: For this financial year, £2 million is available to continue the development and implementation of the ASD strategic action plan. That includes the development of diagnostic and counselling services for adults with ASD and children’s diagnostic services. We are working with Autism Cymru, the National Autistic Society and others to undertake a consultation to identify the key issues that will need to be taken forward in the future as part of the plan.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon, mae £2 filiwn ar gael i barhau i ddatblygu a gweithredu'r cynllun gweithredu strategol ASD. Mae hynny’n cynnwys datblygu gwasanaethau diagnostig a chynghori ar gyfer oedolion ag ASD a gwasanaethau diagnostig i blant. Rydym yn gweithio gydag Awtistiaeth Cymru, y Gymdeithas Awtistiaeth Genedlaethol ac eraill i gynnal ymgynghoriad i ganfod y materion allweddol y bydd angen eu datblygu yn y dyfodol fel rhan o’r cynllun.

Mark Isherwood: In the real world, early intervention depends on statementing, and statementing depends on diagnosis. We know from a December 2010 report that was recently leaked, which had been with the Welsh Government for 16 months prior to that, that concerns had been raised about the diagnosis of children. How do you, therefore, respond to concerns raised at a recent meeting of the cross-party autism group by an Asperger’s syndrome pioneer, who said that adults in Wales are worried about how the autism action plan is leaving them out, especially with regard to diagnostic services identifying adults on the spectrum?

Mark Isherwood: Yn y byd go iawn, mae ymyrraeth gynnar yn dibynnu ar ddatganiadau, ac mae datganiadau yn dibynnu ar ddiagnosis. Gwyddom o adroddiad ym mis Rhagfyr 2010 a ddatgelwyd yn answyddogol yn ddiweddar, ac a fu yn nwylo Llywodraeth Cymru am 16 mis cyn hynny, fod pryderon wedi codi ynghylch rhoi diagnosis i blant. Sut ydych chi, felly, yn ymateb i bryderon a godwyd mewn cyfarfod diweddar o’r grŵp awtistiaeth trawsbleidiol gan arloeswr syndrom Asperger, a ddywedodd fod oedolion yng Nghymru yn pryderu nad yw’r cynllun gweithredu awtistiaeth yn eu cynnwys hwy, yn enwedig o ran gwasanaethau diagnostig sy’n nodi bod oedolion ar y sbectrwm?

The First Minister: The money to which I referred earlier is designed to develop diagnostic services and to support projects for people with Asperger’s, so we would expect the action plan, together with the money that has been made available, to ensure that people get the diagnosis that they need as quickly as possible and, thereafter, the support that they need.

Y Prif Weinidog: Diben yr arian y cyfeiriais ato yn gynharach yw datblygu gwasanaethau diagnostig a phrosiectau cymorth ar gyfer pobl â syndrom Asperger, felly byddem yn disgwyl i’r cynllun gweithredu, ynghyd â’r arian sydd ar gael, sicrhau bod pobl yn cael y diagnosis sydd ei angen arnynt cyn gynted â phosibl ac, wedi hynny, y cymorth sydd ei angen arnynt.

The Record

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Brif Weinidog, daeth dau o’m hetholwyr i’m gweld wythnos diwethaf. Mae ganddynt fab sydd ar y sbectrwm awtistiaeth ac roeddent yn dweud bod y ffaith ei fod wedi cael iPad wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i’w ymddygiad a’i allu i ddysgu. Mae dyfeisiadau felly ar gael sydd yn arbennig ar gyfer pobl sydd yn dioddef o awtistiaeth. A yw eich Llywodraeth wedi gwneud unrhyw ymchwil i hyn ac a fyddwch yn barod ystyried sicrhau bod pobl sydd ar y sbectrwm yn gallu cael mynediad i’r math hwn o ddyfais wrth i chi fwrw ymlaen â’ch ymgynghoriad ar y cynllun awtistiaeth hyd at 2015?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: First Minister, two of my constituents came to see me last week. They have a son who is on the autistic spectrum and they said that the fact that he had had an iPad had made a great difference to his behaviour and his ability to learn. Such devices are available especially for people who suffer from autism. Has your Government undertaken any research into this and are you willing to consider ensuring that people on the spectrum can access these kinds of devices as you progress with your consultation on the autism plan until 2015?

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae hwnnw yn syniad diddorol ac rwy’n gobeithio y bydd sôn am y syniad hwnnw yn ystod yr ymgynghori a fydd yn cymryd lle ynglŷn â chyfeiriad y cynllun gweithredu yn y pen draw.

The First Minister: That is an interesting idea and I hope that it will be mentioned during the consultation that will take place as to the future direction of the action plan.

The Record

Budd-daliadau Rhanbarthol

Regional Benefits

8. Keith Davies: Pa drafodaethau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’u cael ynghylch budd-daliadau rhanbarthol. OAQ(4)0627(FM)

8. Keith Davies: What discussions has the Welsh Government had regarding regional benefits. OAQ(4)0627(FM)

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae eithaf dryswch ynglŷn â chynnig Prif Weinidog y Deyrnas Unedig. Nid ydym fel Llywodraeth wedi cael unrhyw drafodaethau hyd yma achos nid ydym yn gwybod yn union beth yw safbwynt y Prif Weinidog yn ystod bywyd y Llywodraeth Brydeinig hon.

The First Minister: There is quite a bit of confusion around the Prime Minister’s proposal. As a Government, we have not had any discussions to date, because we do not know exactly what the view of the Prime Minister is during the lifetime of this British Government.

The Record

Keith Davies: Daw polisïau Llywodraeth San Steffan yn gyflym yn fwyfwy dadleuol. Caiff toriadau parhaus, cyflogau rhanbarthol a diwygio’r system lles eu gwaethygu wrth sôn am gyflwyno system o fudd-daliadau rhanbarthol, lle bydd pobl mewn ardaloedd sy’n gysylltiedig â chyflogau isel yn derbyn llai o fudd-daliadau. Mae eisoes gan Gymru’r cyflog crynswth wythnosol isaf o bedwar gwlad y Deyrnas Unedig, a defnyddir y rhan fwyaf o fudd-daliadau gan bobl fel ychwanegiad i’w hincwm. Os daw cynlluniau Llywodraeth San Steffan i fodolaeth, a fyddwch yn eu gwrthwynebu ar bob cyfle?

 

Keith Davies: The Westminster Government’s policies are quickly becoming more and more contentious. Continuous cuts, regional pay and welfare reform will be made even worse by talk about the introduction of regional benefits, where people in areas with low incomes will receive lower benefits. Wales already has the lowest weekly gross wage of the four nations of the United Kingdom, and most benefits are used by people to top up their incomes. If these plans by the Westminster Government come into existence, will you oppose them on all occasions?

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddaf. Rydym yn gwybod nad yw’r costau byw yng Nghymru yn llai na’r costau byw yn ne-ddwyrain Lloegr. Os rhywbeth, mae rhai pethau’n ddrytach yng Nghymru. Ni welaf fod unrhyw ffordd o gefnogi unrhyw fath o system budd-daliadau rhanbarthol wrth gofio hynny.

The First Minister: I will. We know that the cost of living in Wales is no less than the cost of living in the south-east of England. If anything, there are some things that are more expensive in Wales. I do not see any way of supporting a regional benefits system bearing that in mind.

Nick Ramsay: First Minister, dare I suggest that, if you are not going to have discussions with the Westminster Government about a policy area such as regional benefits, you are not going to have a full understanding of what the UK Government is proposing? There is a lot of hearsay and scaremongering about this issue. There is no solid proposal on the table for regional benefits. I agree with

what Keith Davies said in his question, regarding the problems that there are at the moment with pay differentials, and the fact that wages in parts of Wales are the worst in any part of the UK. Could you tell us what you are doing to address that particular aspect of Keith Davies’s question?

Nick Ramsay: Brif Weinidog, tybed a feiddiaf awgrymu, os nad ydych am gael trafodaethau â Llywodraeth San Steffan am faes polisi fel budd-daliadau rhanbarthol, ni fydd gennych ddealltwriaeth lawn o’r hyn y mae Llywodraeth y DU yn ei gynnig? Mae llawer o wybodaeth ail-law a chodi bwganod am y mater hwn. Nid oes unrhyw gynnig cadarn o’n blaenau ar gyfer budd-daliadau rhanbarthol. Rwyf yn cytuno â’r hyn a ddywedodd Keith Davies yn ei gwestiwn ynghylch y problemau presennol gyda gwahaniaethau mewn cyflog, a’r ffaith mai cyflogau yn rhannau o Gymru yw’r gwaethaf yn unrhyw ran o’r DU. A allwch ddweud wrthym beth yr ydych yn ei wneud i fynd i’r afael â’r agwedd benodol honno ar gwestiwn Keith Davies?

The First Minister: I will tell you what we are not doing. We do not believe that public sector pay should be cut by 20%, which would make things even worse. That is something that the UK Treasury tried to put forward at one point. I have to tell the Member that we are not going to engage in conversations with the UK Government on regional benefits because we do not agree with regional benefits. There is no compromise. There is opposition. We do not accept that people in Wales—or those in the north-east of England for that matter—should be paid less or given less in benefits because of where they live. We know full well that the cost of living is the same wherever you are.

Y Prif Weinidog: Dywedaf wrthych yr hyn nad ydym yn ei wneud. Nid ydym yn credu y dylai cyflogau yn y sector cyhoeddus gael eu torri 20%, gan wneud pethau’n waeth fyth. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y ceisiodd Trysorlys y DU ei gyflwyno ar un adeg. Rhaid imi ddweud wrth yr Aelod nad ydym am gymryd rhan mewn sgyrsiau gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch budd-daliadau rhanbarthol oherwydd nad ydym yn cytuno gyda budd-daliadau rhanbarthol. Nid oes unrhyw gyfaddawd. Mae gwrthwynebiad. Nid ydym yn derbyn y dylai pobl yng Nghymru—neu yng ngogledd-ddwyrain Lloegr o ran hynny—gael llai o dâl neu gael llai o fudd-daliadau oherwydd ble maent yn byw. Rydym yn gwybod yn iawn fod costau byw yr un fath ble bynnag yr ydych.

Alun Ffred Jones: Earlier this year, Liam Byrne, the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, said that he was in favour of a 'cap set locally’ on household benefits. Is this Labour Party policy, and are you in favour of it?

Alun Ffred Jones: Yn gynharach eleni dywedodd Liam Byrne, Ysgrifennydd Gwaith a Phensiynau yr Wrthblaid, ei fod o blaid cael cap a bennir yn lleol ar fudd-daliadau aelwydydd. Ai polisi’r Blaid Lafur yw hyn, ac a ydych o’i blaid?

The First Minister: No it is not, and I do not agree with that position.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nage, ac nid wyf yn cytuno â’r farn honno.

The Record

Blaenoriaethau ar gyfer Hawliau Plant

Priorities for Children’s Rights

9. Lindsay Whittle: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am flaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer hawliau plant. OAQ(4)0625(FM)

9. Lindsay Whittle: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s priorities for children’s rights. OAQ(4)0625(FM)

The First Minister: Yes. We are proud to be the first nation in the UK to enshrine children’s rights in our domestic law.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwnaf. Rydym yn falch mai ni yw’r wlad gyntaf yn y DU i ymgorffori hawliau plant yn ein cyfraith ddomestig.

Lindsay Whittle: Thank you for that good answer, First Minister, and I join you in that. However, I wanted to ask you about your action plan on children’s rights. As you know, there are 16 priority areas listed, yet nowhere are the needs of young carers in Wales specifically mentioned. In Wales, there are 11,000 children who care for a relative, carrying out such tasks as washing, making meals, dressing and bathing. Some of these children are in primary schools. Many of these young carers are also bullied at school and miss out on an education. First Minister, what assurances can you give that the rights of these vulnerable young carers to be free from bullying and to receive the same educational opportunities as other children will be safeguarded by this Government, bearing in mind the very important point that support for young carers can be included as an additional priority within your five-year action plan?  

Lindsay Whittle: Diolch ichi am yr ateb da hwnnw, Brif Weinidog, ac ymunaf â chi yn hynny. Fodd bynnag, yr oeddwn am ofyn ichi am eich cynllun gweithredu ar hawliau plant. Fel y gwyddoch, rhestrir 16 o feysydd blaenoriaeth, ac eto ni chyfeirir yn unman at  anghenion gofalwyr ifanc yng Nghymru yn benodol. Yng Nghymru, mae 11,000 o blant yn gofalu am berthynas, yn cyflawni tasgau megis golchi, gwneud prydau bwyd, gwisgo ac ymolchi. Mae rhai o’r plant hyn mewn ysgolion cynradd. Mae nifer o’r gofalwyr ifanc hyn yn cael eu bwlio yn yr ysgol hefyd ac yn colli allan ar gael addysg. Brif Weinidog, pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi y bydd hawliau’r gofalwyr ifanc hyn sy’n agored i niwed i fod yn rhydd o fwlio ac i gael yr un cyfleoedd addysgol â phlant eraill yn cael eu diogelu gan y Llywodraeth hon, gan gadw mewn cof y pwynt pwysig iawn y gellir cynnwys cefnogaeth i ofalwyr ifanc yn flaenoriaeth ychwanegol yn eich cynllun gweithredu pum mlynedd?  

The First Minister: Support for young carers is a priority for us, as it was for the Member’s party when it was a part of Government. We know that there are many young people in Wales, sometimes at a very young age, who are carers. That is why, through the carers strategy and the support that we have put in place for young carers, we recognise the contribution that they make, and the need for them to have the necessary level of support.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae cefnogaeth i ofalwyr ifanc yn flaenoriaeth i ni, fel yr oedd i blaid yr Aelod pan oedd yn rhan o’r Llywodraeth. Gwyddom fod nifer o bobl ifanc yng Nghymru sy’n ofalwyr, weithiau pan fyddant yn ifanc iawn. Dyna pam yr ydym, drwy’r strategaeth gofalwyr a’r gefnogaeth yr ydym wedi’i rhoi ar waith ar gyfer gofalwyr ifanc, yn cydnabod y cyfraniad y maent yn ei wneud, a’r angen iddynt gael y lefel angenrheidiol o gefnogaeth.

Angela Burns: First Minister, I am sure that you will agree with me that all people, especially children, have the right to not suffer abuse throughout their lives. One of the areas where abuse sadly occurs sometimes is on the sports field. There is a big problem with sporting punishments and regulations relating to people who have committed abuse. For example, if a judo coach was to abuse a child in his or her care—and there is evidence about a judo coach—and if that person then moved away from judo and into another sport, there is no cross-referencing from the independent safeguarding authority regarding where they have gone and the fact that they have committed this awful crime. First Minister, what discussions have you had, or will you undertake to have, with the Westminster Government—as this is a joint issue between Westminster and Wales—regarding how the independent safeguarding authority should put into place proper rules and regulations to ensure that you are regulated, no matter what sport you are involved in, and to ensure that, if you are found to have committed abuse against a child, you can be prevented from going into any other area?

Angela Burns: Brif Weinidog, rwyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno â mi bod gan bawb, yn enwedig plant, yr hawl i beidio â gorfod dioddef cael eu cam-drin drwy gydol eu bywydau. Un o’r meysydd lle mae cam-drin yn digwydd weithiau, yn anffodus, yw ar y maes chwaraeon. Mae problem fawr ynghylch cosbau chwaraeon a rheoliadau sy’n ymwneud â phobl sydd wedi cam-drin. Er enghraifft, pe byddai hyfforddwr jiwdo yn cam-drin plentyn yn ei ofal—ac mae tystiolaeth am hyfforddwr jiwdo—a phe bai’r unigolyn dan sylw yn symud i ffwrdd oddi wrth jiwdo ac i gamp arall, nid oes unrhyw groesgyfeirio gan yr awdurdod diogelu annibynnol ynghylch lle mae wedi mynd a’r ffaith ei fod wedi cyflawni’r drosedd erchyll hon. Brif Weinidog, pa drafodaethau yr ydych chi wedi’u cael, neu y byddwch yn ymrwymo i’w cael, gyda Llywodraeth San Steffan—gan fod hwn yn fater ar y cyd rhwng Cymru a San Steffan—ynghylch sut y dylai’r awdurdod diogelu annibynnol fynd ati i gyflwyno rheolau a rheoliadau priodol i sicrhau eich bod yn cael eich rheoleiddio, waeth pa gamp yr ydych yn ymwneud â hi, er mwyn sicrhau, os canfyddir eich bod wedi cam-drin plentyn, y gellir eich atal rhag gweithio mewn maes arall?

The First Minister: The Member raises an important point, and I will write to her with the details that she requires, in terms of how different levels of Government are working together in order to provide proper safeguarding.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’r Aelod yn codi pwynt pwysig, a byddaf yn ysgrifennu ati gyda’r manylion y mae’n holi amdanynt, o ran sut y mae gwahanol lefelau o Lywodraeth yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd er mwyn darparu’r diogelwch priodol.

The Record

David Rees: Following on from Lindsay Whittle’s points, Neath Port Talbot has one of the highest percentages of young carers in the UK. Last week, I met Victoria Thomas and the director of education for Neath Port Talbot to discuss the actions being taken there to help schools to identify and support these young carers who are taking on a tremendous responsibility and which can also lead to them being bullied in school. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to look at the schools and the resource packages available to them to identify and support young carers in schools?

David Rees: Yn dilyn ymlaen o bwyntiau Lindsay Whittle, Castell-nedd Port Talbot sydd ag un o’r canrannau uchaf o ofalwyr ifanc yn y DU. Yr wythnos diwethaf, cwrddais â Victoria Thomas a chyfarwyddwr addysg Castell-nedd Port Talbot i drafod y camau sy’n cael eu cymryd yno i helpu ysgolion i ganfod a chefnogi’r gofalwyr ifanc hyn sy’n cymryd cyfrifoldeb aruthrol ar eu hysgwyddau, sydd hefyd yn gallu arwain at iddynt gael eu bwlio yn ysgol. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i edrych ar yr ysgolion a’r pecynnau adnoddau sydd ar gael iddynt i ganfod a chefnogi gofalwyr ifanc mewn ysgolion?

The First Minister: We are developing a web-based toolkit for professionals in health, education and social services, to assist them in providing support for young carers. That includes updating the 'Caring for Young Carers’ training resource for schools, which was originally issued in 2004. We know that we need to involve young carers in its design and that is something that will happen.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym yn datblygu pecyn cymorth ar y we ar gyfer gweithwyr proffesiynol yn y gwasanaethau iechyd, addysg a chymdeithasol, i’w helpu i ddarparu cefnogaeth ar gyfer gofalwyr ifanc. Mae hynny’n cynnwys diweddaru’r adnodd hyfforddiant 'Gofalu am Ofalwyr Ifanc’ ar gyfer ysgolion, a gyhoeddwyd yn wreiddiol yn 2004. Gwyddom fod angen inni gynnwys gofalwyr ifanc yn y gwaith o’i gynllunio ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth a fydd yn digwydd.

The Record

Treftadaeth

Heritage

10. Christine Chapman: Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i warchod treftadaeth Cymoedd De Cymru. OAQ(4)0618(FM)

10. Christine Chapman: What action is the Welsh Government taking to conserve the heritage of the South Wales Valleys. OAQ(4)0618(FM)

The First Minister: Our actions are to be found in the programme for government.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae ein camau gweithredu i’w cael yn y rhaglen lywodraethu.

Christine Chapman: I am very pleased with plans unveiled by Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council to place blue plaques throughout the county borough to celebrate the historic accomplishments of local residents, thereby helping us to tell the story of the south Wales Valleys. A special heritage trail is also being planned, and I am delighted that, in Aberdare, the project will be linked to the regeneration of the town. Marking our heritage gives us a sense of pride, and it also offers economic benefits, for example, through tourism. First Minister, how can we ensure that these links are made and that we advertise our heritage as widely as possible?

Christine Chapman: Rwyf yn falch iawn o’r cynlluniau a gyhoeddwyd gan Gyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf i osod placiau glas drwy’r fwrdeistref sirol i ddathlu llwyddiannau hanesyddol y trigolion lleol, gan ein helpu ni i adrodd hanes Cymoedd y De. Mae llwybr treftadaeth arbennig hefyd yn cael ei gynllunio, ac rwyf wrth fy modd y bydd y prosiect, yn Aberdâr, yn cael ei gysylltu ag adfywiad y dref. Mae nodi ein treftadaeth yn rhoi ymdeimlad o falchder inni, ac mae hefyd yn cynnig manteision economaidd, er enghraifft, drwy dwristiaeth. Brif Weinidog, sut y gallwn sicrhau bod y cysylltiadau hyn yn cael eu gwneud a’n bod yn hysbysebu ein treftadaeth mor eang â phosibl?

The First Minister: Several Cadw characterisation studies have focused on Valleys towns. The aim is to foster an understanding of the historic character of whole towns, and not just particular areas or buildings, to inform a range of planning and regeneration activities. Of course, the heritage Bill offers an opportunity to ensure that we can further strengthen the protection of buildings with heritage and our heritage generally.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae nifer o astudiaethau nodweddion Cadw wedi canolbwyntio ar drefi’r Cymoedd. Y nod yw meithrin dealltwriaeth o nodweddion hanesyddol trefi cyfan, ac nid ardaloedd neu adeiladau penodol yn unig, er mwyn llywio amrywiaeth o weithgareddau cynllunio ac adfywio. Wrth gwrs, mae’r Bil treftadaeth yn gyfle i sicrhau y gallwn gryfhau’r gwaith o ddiogelu adeiladau ymhellach gyda threftadaeth a’n treftadaeth yn gyffredinol.

Suzy Davies: Many Members, I am sure, will be aware of the South Wales Miners’ Museum in my region. It was set up 36 years ago by volunteers and it still depends strongly on volunteers for its success. It is an excellent example of a community organisation taking action to conserve its own heritage. To what extent does your Government draw on the experience of successful civil society enterprises, such as the South Wales Miners’ Museum, in deciding its priorities for preserving and promoting its Valleys heritage?

Suzy Davies: Rwyf yn siŵr bod nifer o Aelodau yn ymwybodol o Amgueddfa Glowyr De Cymru yn fy rhanbarth i. Cafodd ei sefydlu 36 mlynedd yn ôl gan wirfoddolwyr ac mae ei lwyddiant yn dal i ddibynnu’n fawr ar wirfoddolwyr. Mae’n enghraifft wych o sefydliad cymunedol sy’n cymryd camau i warchod ei dreftadaeth ei hun. I ba raddau y mae eich Llywodraeth yn defnyddio profiad mentrau llwyddiannus cymdeithas sifil, fel Amgueddfa Glowyr De Cymru, wrth benderfynu ar ei blaenoriaethau ar gyfer gwarchod a hyrwyddo treftadaeth y Cymoedd?

The First Minister: We always look to work with groups that seek to preserve their heritage. I was in Senghenydd last week, at the launch of a campaign to erect a national mining memorial. I was very impressed with the level of enthusiasm and ability of the local group that I met there. So, yes, we do look at local groups in order to help them to realise their objectives.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym bob amser yn anelu at weithio gyda grwpiau sy’n ceisio diogelu eu treftadaeth. Roeddwn yn Senghennydd yr wythnos diwethaf, lle'r oedd ymgyrch yn cael ei lansio i godi cofeb mwyngloddio genedlaethol. Roeddwn yn falch iawn o frwdfrydedd a gallu’r grŵp lleol y cyfarfûm ag ef yno. Felly, ydym, rydym yn edrych ar grwpiau lleol er mwyn eu helpu i gyflawni eu hamcanion.

Bethan Jenkins: First Minister, you will be aware that plans are afoot to consider merging the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales with Cadw. Can you give us an update on where those discussions are, whether the royal commission is fully involved in those discussions, and how those plans have progressed in terms of how Assembly Members are able to scrutinise what is happening with those two bodies?

Bethan Jenkins: Brif Weinidog, byddwch yn ymwybodol bod cynlluniau ar y gweill i ystyried uno Comisiwn Brenhinol Henebion Cymru â Cadw. A allwch chi roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni am y trafodaethau hynny, a yw’r comisiwn brenhinol yn cymryd rhan lawn yn y trafodaethau hynny, a sut y mae’r cynlluniau hynny wedi symud yn eu blaenau o ran sut y gall Aelodau’r Cynulliad graffu ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd gyda’r ddau gorff hynny?

The First Minister: Assembly Members will be able to scrutinise what is happening, and we seek to ensure that any move such as this enhances the protection of our heritage.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn gallu craffu ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd, ac rydym yn ceisio sicrhau bod unrhyw gamau fel hyn yn gwella’r gwaith o ddiogelu ein treftadaeth.

Triniaeth Achub Bywyd

Life-saving Treatment

11. Darren Millar: Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i wella’r mynediad at driniaethau sy’n achub bywydau ar gyfer cleifion Cymru. OAQ(4)0620(FM)

11. Darren Millar: What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to life saving treatment for Welsh patients. OAQ(4)0620(FM)

The First Minister: He must have been consulting with his lawyer, Llywydd, to suddenly appear.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n rhaid ei fod wedi bod yn ymgynghori â’i gyfreithiwr, Llywydd, i ymddangos mor gyflym.  

Our proposals for improving access to life-saving treatment are set out in 'Together for Health’.

Mae ein cynigion ar gyfer gwella mynediad i driniaeth achub bywyd wedi’u nodi yn 'Law yn Llaw at Iechyd’.

Darren Millar: He may think that life-saving issues are a laughing matter or something to jest about, but I certainly do not. In an emergency, access to life-saving care within a proper timescale is absolutely essential so that people can have good outcomes. Just last week, we heard that the decision had been made to strip out acute medical beds from Neath Port Talbot Hospital. What assurances can you give the residents of Conwy in Denbighshire, who are served by Ysbyty Glan Clwyd in north Wales, that the accident and emergency services and the general surgery services that back them up will not be withdrawn from that hospital?

Darren Millar: Efallai ei fod yn credu bod materion sy’n ymwneud ag achub bywyd yn rhywbeth i chwerthin amdanynt neu’n rhywbeth i wneud jôc amdanynt, ond nid wyf fi. Mewn achos brys, mae cael gafael ar ofal achub bywyd o fewn amser priodol yn hollol hanfodol er mwyn i bobl gael canlyniadau da. Yr wythnos diwethaf, clywsom fod penderfyniad wedi’i wneud i gael gwared ar y gwelyau meddygol acíwt o Ysbyty Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi i drigolion Conwy yn Sir Ddinbych, sy’n cael eu gwasanaethu gan Ysbyty Glan Clwyd yng ngogledd Cymru, na fydd y gwasanaethau damweiniau ac achosion brys a’r gwasanaethau llawfeddygaeth cyffredinol sy’n eu cefnogi yn cael eu tynnu oddi ar yr ysbyty hwnnw?

The First Minister: We will always look to provide services in a safe manner, and that means that we want to ensure that people have access to the best level of service. I can assure everybody in Wales, and not just those who live close to Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, that this Government will never falter in its stated aim of ensuring that the health service is as good and as safe as possible.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwn bob amser yn ceisio darparu gwasanaethau mewn modd diogel, ac mae hynny’n golygu ein bod am sicrhau bod pobl yn gallu cael gafael ar y lefel orau o wasanaeth. Gallaf roi sicrwydd i bawb yng Nghymru, ac nid yn unig y rhai sy’n byw yn agos at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, na fydd y Llywodraeth hon fyth yn petruso o ran ei nod penodol o sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth iechyd mor dda ac mor ddiogel â phosibl.

2.15 p.m.

 

Keith Davies: I, and Assembly Members Joyce Watson and Rebecca Evans, met councillors at an extraordinary meeting of Llanelli Town Council yesterday. Concerns were raised about the speed at which Hywel Dda Local Health Board intends to move into consultation following on from the recent listening and engagement process. People are concerned that if services are moved around too much, there will be an additional cost to the ambulance service and a negative impact on patients, especially those in my constituency, where there are five areas of substantial deprivation. Do you agree that services must be accessible if they are to provide life-saving treatment?

Keith Davies:  Bu i mi, a’r Aelodau Cynulliad Joyce Watson a Rebecca Evans, gyfarfod â chynghorwyr mewn cyfarfod arbennig o Gyngor Tref Llanelli ddoe. Mynegwyd pryderon am gyflymder bwriad Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda i symud i gynnal ymgynghoriad yn dilyn y broses wrando ac ymgysylltu ddiweddar. Mae pobl yn pryderu os caiff gwasanaethau eu symud o gwmpas yn ormodol, y bydd cost ychwanegol i’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans ac y bydd effaith negyddol ar gleifion, yn enwedig y rhai yn fy etholaeth i, lle mae pump ardal o amddifadedd sylweddol. A ydych yn cytuno bod yn rhaid i wasanaethau fod ar gael os ydynt i ddarparu triniaeth achub bywyd?

The First Minister: Services have to be accessible and safe. I was in Prince Philip Hospital on Sunday and was more than happy to speak to staff there, while visiting a relative who is there at the moment. It is important that services are as accessible as possible. It is also important that they are safe. Those are the two key principles that will always motivate this Government in what it wishes to do.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rhaid i wasanaethau fod yn hygyrch ac yn ddiogel. Roeddwn yn Ysbyty’r Tywysog Philip ddydd Sul ac yn fwy na pharod i siarad gyda’r staff yno, wrth imi ymweld â pherthynas sydd yno ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n bwysig bod gwasanaethau mor hygyrch â phosibl. Mae hefyd yn bwysig eu bod yn ddiogel. Dyna’r ddwy egwyddor allweddol a fydd bob amser yn ysgogi’r Llywodraeth hon o ran yr hyn y mae’n dymuno ei wneud.

Elin Jones: Yn ôl cofnodion cyfarfod y Cabinet ar 13 Mawrth pan wnaethoch drafod adroddiad honedig annibynnol Marcus Longley, fe’i cofnodwyd y byddai Llywodraeth Cymru yn edrych i warantu

Elin Jones: According the minutes of the Cabinet meeting of 13 March, when you discussed the allegedly independent report of Marcus Longley, the Welsh Government would look to guarantee that

'na fyddai unman yng Nghymru fwy na 30 munud i ffwrdd o driniaeth frys’.

'nowhere in Wales being more than 30 minutes away from emergency treatment’.

Pryd yr ydych chi, fel Llywodraeth, yn bwriadu cwrdd â’r targed hwnnw y gwnaethoch osod i chi’ch hunain?

When are you as a Government intending to meet that particular target that you set for yourselves?

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwy’n falch bod yr Aelod wedi dweud bod yr adroddiad yn hollol annibynnol. Mae’n bwysig dros ben bod hynny’n cael ei ddweud ar gofnod. Hefyd, mae’n rhaid inni weld beth yn union y bydd byrddau iechyd yn ei ddweud am yr hyn y maent am ei wneud yn y dyfodol. Byddwn, wrth gwrs, yn cadw at ein gair o ran sicrhau gwasanaeth iechyd sy’n ddiogel ac sydd ar gael i bobl pan fyddant ei angen.

The First Minister: I am pleased that the Member said that the report is totally independent. It is extremely important that that is said on record. We must also see exactly what the health boards say about what they wish to do in the future. We will, of course, keep to our word in terms of ensuring a health service that is safe and accessible at the point of need.

Aled Roberts: Brif Weinidog, mae Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr eisoes wedi penderfynu ei fod yn trosglwyddo gwasanaethau trawma acíwt i Stoke. Cyhoeddir adolygiadau pellach dros y pythefnos nesaf. A ydych yn fodlon bod y byrddau iechyd wedi cael digon o drafodaethau gyda’r gwasanaeth ambiwlans o ran y galwadau ychwanegol ar y gwasanaeth hwnnw wrth i’r gwasanaethau hynny gael eu trosglwyddo dros y ffin?

Aled Roberts: First Minister, the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board has already decided that it is transferring acute trauma services to Stoke. There will be further reviews published over the next fortnight. Are you content that these health boards have had adequate negotiations with the ambulance service in terms of the additional demands on that service as those services are transferred over the border?

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n fater i’r byrddau iechyd sicrhau bod gwasanaeth ar gael, ond mae’n hollol arferol i bobl sydd â chyflwr anarferol gael eu symud i ysbyty sydd efallai’n bell i ffwrdd. Er enghraifft, os bydd rhywun yn cael ei losgi, byddant yn mynd i Dreforys. Os bydd ar rywun angen triniaeth ar yr ymennydd, byddant yn mynd i Gaerdydd. Mae hynny wedi digwydd erioed. Felly, mae’n bwysig dros ben ein bod yn gallu dod o hyd i gydbwysedd rhwng y ffaith bod pobl eisiau gwasanaeth sy’n agos iddynt a sicrhau bod pobl yn cael y gwasanaeth gorau sydd ar gael.

The First Minister: It is up to the health boards to ensure that a service is available, but it is quite usual for people with unusual conditions to be moved to a hospital that may be further away. For example, if someone suffers burns, then they go to Morriston Hospital. If someone needs brain surgery, they go to Cardiff. That has always been the way. It is exceptionally important, therefore, that we can strike a balance between the fact that people want services close to them and ensuring that they get the best possible service available.

The Record

Blaenoriaethau Economaidd

Economic Priorities

12. Joyce Watson: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am flaenoriaethau economaidd Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer Canolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru. OAQ(4)0630(FM)

12. Joyce Watson: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s economic priorities for Mid and West Wales. OAQ(4)0630(FM)

The First Minister: Yes, they are to be found in the programme for government.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwnaf; maent i’w cael yn y rhaglen lywodraethu.

Joyce Watson: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Holed up as we are, deep in the Chamber, I do not know whether it is still raining outside, but it is fair to say that it has been a wet summer so far. Can I ask whether—no pun intended—the Government has begun to calculate the economic impact of this summer’s flooding, particularly for tourism-dependent businesses in my region? Looking ahead to next year, can we promote Wales as an all-weather venue that is open for business regardless of the weather?

Joyce Watson: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog. Gan ein bod wedi ein cuddio yma yn ddwfn yn y Siambr, wn i ddim a yw’n bwrw glaw o hyd y tu allan, ond mae’n deg dweud y bu’n haf gwlyb hyd yma. A yw’r Llywodraeth wedi dechrau cyfrifo effaith economaidd llifogydd yr haf hwn, yn enwedig ar fusnesau sy’n ddibynnol ar dwristiaeth yn fy rhanbarth i? Gan edrych ymlaen at y flwyddyn nesaf, a allwn ni hyrwyddo Cymru fel lleoliad bob tywydd sydd ar agor i fusnes beth bynnag fo’r tywydd?

The First Minister: Sadly, we cannot control the weather. Undoubtedly, it is difficult for many tourism-related businesses. Some indoor attractions may well have seen a better year than normal. However, we know that a number of businesses will be struggling as a result of the weather and we will look to work with them to ensure that they have a sustainable future.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn anffodus, ni allwn reoli’r tywydd. Heb os, mae’n anodd i nifer o fusnesau sy’n gysylltiedig â thwristiaeth. Efallai y bydd rhai atyniadau dan do wedi cael blwyddyn well na’r arfer. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom y bydd nifer o fusnesau yn ei chael hi’n anodd o ganlyniad i’r tywydd a byddwn yn edrych i weithio gyda hwy i sicrhau bod ganddynt ddyfodol cynaliadwy.

Russell George: First Minister, you will be aware of the Upper Severn Valley heritage fund, which is part of the Severn valley regeneration project that is partly funded by the Welsh Government. Carno Community Council has written to me because it is concerned about the boundary designations that have been made by the Government, which have, effectively, excluded Carno residents and businesses from accessing the fund, which is used to improve the external fabric of properties and so on. To my mind, Carno is in the Severn valley and should be included in the scheme. Therefore, Minister, will you task your officials to examine the anomaly with some urgency because the application deadline is fast approaching and I do not want to see Carno residents disadvantaged?

Russell George: Brif Weinidog, byddwch yn gwybod am gronfa dreftadaeth Dyffryn Uchaf yr Hafren, sy’n rhan o brosiect adfywio dyffryn Hafren sy’n cael ei ariannu’n rhannol gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae Cyngor Cymuned Carno wedi ysgrifennu ataf gan ei fod yn pryderu am y dynodiadau ffin a wnaed gan y Llywodraeth, sydd, i bob pwrpas, wedi atal trigolion a busnesau Carno rhag cael mynediad i’r gronfa, sy’n cael ei defnyddio i wella adeiladwaith allanol eiddo, ac yn y blaen. Yn fy marn i, mae Carno yn nyffryn Hafren a dylid ei gynnwys yn y cynllun. Felly, Weinidog, a wnewch chi ofyn i’ch swyddogion edrych rhag blaen ar yr anghysondeb hwn gan fod y dyddiad cau yn prysur agosáu, ac nid wyf am weld trigolion Carno yn cael eu rhoi o dan anfantais?

The First Minister: I will investigate the Member’s concerns and write to him.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddaf yn ymchwilio i bryderon yr Aelod ac yn ysgrifennu ato.

Pobl sy’n Hawlio Budd-daliadau

Benefit Claimants

13. Mark Drakeford: Pa asesiad y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’i wneud o effaith unrhyw gynnig i gyflwyno cyfraddau nawdd cymdeithasol rhanbarthol ar y rheini sy’n hawlio budd-daliadau yng Nghymru. OAQ(4)0624(FM)

13. Mark Drakeford: What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact of any regionalisation of social security rates on benefit claimants in Wales. OAQ(4)0624(FM)

The First Minister: We know that Wales will be hit disproportionately hard compared to many other parts of the UK, and any attempt to introduce regional benefits will just make matters worse.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwyddom y bydd Cymru yn cael ei tharo’n anghymesur o galed o’i chymharu â nifer o rannau eraill y DU, ac mai dim ond gwneud pethau’n waeth fyddai unrhyw ymgais i gyflwyno buddiannau rhanbarthol.

Mark Drakeford: Do you think that the enthusiasm of the Chancellor, George Osborne, for regionalisation extends to knowing that benefit claimants in Wales face the highest electricity prices in Britain? Do you think that the Prime Minister is aware that his instruction to energy companies to 'clear up’ their tariffs is, according to Consumer Focus, leading to such families being 'much worse off’ as energy companies scrap discounts and increase the cheapest tariffs one third faster than standard tariffs? Is this not exactly what you would expect when poverty policy is made on the playing fields of Eton?

Mark Drakeford: A ydych yn credu bod brwdfrydedd y Canghellor, George Osborne, ynghylch rhanbartholi yn ymestyn i wybod bod hawlwyr budd-daliadau yng Nghymru yn wynebu’r prisiau trydan uchaf ym Mhrydain? A ydych yn meddwl bod y Prif Weinidog yn ymwybodol bod ei gyfarwyddyd i gwmnïau ynni i 'glirio’ eu tariffau, yn ôl Llais Defnyddwyr, yn golygu bod teuluoedd o’r fath yn 'llawer gwaeth eu byd’ wrth i gwmnïau ynni gael gwared ar ostyngiadau a chynyddu’r prisiau rhataf draean yn gyflymach na thariffau safonol? Onid yw hyn yn union yr hyn y byddech yn ei ddisgwyl pan fo’r polisi ar dlodi yn cael ei wneud ar gaeau chwarae Eton?

The First Minister: Absolutely, and I hope that the UK Government comes to its senses, if indeed there is a UK Government after the vote tonight in the House of Commons. We will have to wait and see. You might add that to the comments by Nick Boles, who I understand is very close to the Prime Minister, suggesting the removal of free prescriptions from some pensioners, along with the winter fuel payment, and questioning child benefit—not child benefit for the better off, but child benefit full stop. We know that what he says is a reflection of what the Prime Minister is thinking. It is about time that the Tories came clean about what their real plans are, if they were ever elected with a majority.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn bendant, ac rwy’n gobeithio y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn dod at ei synhwyrau, os yn wir bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn bodoli ar ôl y bleidlais heno yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin. Cawn weld. Efallai y byddwch am ychwanegu hynny at y sylwadau a wnaed gan Nick Boles, sy’n agos iawn at y Prif Weinidog hyd y deallaf, a awgrymodd y dylid cael gwared ar bresgripsiynau am ddim i rai pensiynwyr, ynghyd â’r taliad tanwydd gaeaf, ac a gwestiynodd fudd-dal plant—nid budd-dal plant i’r rhai sy’n well eu byd, ond budd-dal plant yn ei gyfanrwydd. Rydym yn gwybod bod yr hyn a ddywed yn adlewyrchu’r hyn y mae’r Prif Weinidog yn ei feddwl. Mae’n hen bryd i’r Torïaid fod yn onest am eu cynlluniau gwirioneddol, pe baent fyth yn cael eu hethol gyda mwyafrif.

Cefnogi Hapchwaraewyr Patholegol

Supporting Pathological Gamblers

14. Rebecca Evans: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am ddull gweithredu Llywodraeth Cymru yng nghyswllt cefnogi hapchwaraewyr patholegol. OAQ(4)0628(FM)

14. Rebecca Evans: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s approach to supporting pathological gamblers. OAQ(4)0628(FM)

The First Minister: People with pathological gambling addiction can consult their GP for advice and can get appropriate support, which in some cases can be provided by specialist addiction nurses, counsellors or psychiatrists.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gall pobl sydd â dibyniaeth gamblo patholegol ymgynghori â’u meddyg teulu i gael cyngor a gallant gael cymorth priodol, y gellir ei ddarparu mewn rhai achosion gan nyrsys, cynghorwyr neu seiciatryddion sy’n arbenigo mewn dibyniaeth.

Rebecca Evans: The Welsh Government has made great strides in supporting people who are addicted to alcohol and other drugs, but there is still a real lack of services and support for the increasing number of people with gambling addiction. How is the Welsh Government seeking to address this?

Rebecca Evans: Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cymryd camau breision i gefnogi pobl sy’n gaeth i alcohol a chyffuriau eraill, ond mae gwir ddiffyg o hyd o ran gwasanaethau a chymorth i’r nifer gynyddol o bobl sydd â dibyniaeth gamblo. Sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ceisio mynd i’r afael â hyn?

The First Minister: We provide funding for Citizens Advice Cymru and part of that funding supports Adviceline Cymru, which can provide advice on the impact of gambling where there may be financial consequences for individuals or families.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rydym yn darparu cyllid ar gyfer Cyngor ar Bopeth Cymru ac mae rhan o’r arian hwnnw yn cefnogi Llinell Gyngor Cymru, sy’n gallu rhoi cyngor ar effaith gamblo lle gallai fod canlyniadau ariannol i unigolion neu deuluoedd.

Darren Millar: More than 100,000 people in Wales are addicted to gambling or at risk of gambling addiction. Just last week we had a debate in the Senedd about lowering the voting age to 16, a position that your Government supported. How consistent is that argument with the fact that I have not heard a suggestion that the gambling age ought to be reduced to 16?

Darren Millar: Mae mwy na 100,000 o bobl yng Nghymru yn gaeth i gamblo, neu mewn perygl o fod yn ddibynnol ar gamblo. Dim ond yr wythnos diwethaf, cawsom ddadl yn y Senedd am ostwng yr oedran pleidleisio i 16, sy’n rhywbeth y mae eich Llywodraeth yn ei gefnogi. Pa mor gyson yw’r ddadl honno â’r ffaith na chlywais awgrym y dylid gostwng yr oedran gamblo i 16?

The First Minister: I agree with him. I do not think that the gambling age should be reduced to 16.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwyf yn cytuno ag ef. Nid wyf yn credu y dylid gostwng yr oedran gamblo i 16.

Ysgrifennydd Parhaol

Permanent Secretary

15. Alun Ffred Jones: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’u cael ynghylch y broses o benodi Ysgrifennydd Parhaol i Lywodraeth Cymru. OAQ(4)0631(FM)

15. Alun Ffred Jones: What discussions has the First Minister had on the process of appointing a Permanent Secretary to the Welsh Government. OAQ(4)0631(FM)

Y Prif Weinidog: Rwyf wedi cael trafodaethau ar y mater hwn gyda phennaeth y gwasanaeth sifil. Cafodd cystadleuaeth ei lansio ar draws y gwasanaeth sifil yr wythnos diwethaf, ac rwy’n erfyn y bydd penodiad yn cael ei wneud ym mis Medi.

The First Minister: I have had discussions with the head of the civil service on this matter. A civil service-wide competition was launched last week, and I expect that an appointment will be made in September.

Alun Ffred Jones: Ym maniffesto’r Blaid Lafur ar gyfer yr etholiad diwethaf, rydych yn dweud

Alun Ffred Jones: In the Labour party manifesto for the last election you say that

'ei fod yn anghyson nad yw uwch wasanaeth sifi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn atebol i Weinidogion Cymru’,

'it is anomalous that the Assembly Government senior civil service is not accountable to Welsh Ministers’,

a byddech yn

and that you will

'ceisio adlinio llywodraethu a pherfformiad gwasanaeth sifi Llywodraeth y Cynulliad’.

'seek realignment of the governance and performance of the Assembly Government civil service’.

A ydych wedi trafod y cynigion hyn gyda Swyddfa Cymru neu Lywodraeth San Steffan? A fydd trefn newydd, felly, wrth benodi’r Ysgrifennydd Parhaol newydd o’i gymharu â’r hen un a fydd yn golygu y bydd yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol newydd yn atebol i chi?

Have you discussed these proposals with the Wales Office or the Westminster Government? Will there be a new system, therefore, for appointing the new Permanent Secretary compared with the old one that will mean that the new Permanent Secretary will be accountable to you?

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae trafodaethau wedi bod ac rwy’n hapus iawn gyda’r input y byddaf yn ei gael o ran apwyntiad Ysgrifennydd Parhaol. Mae’n bwysig dros ben, wrth gwrs, bod yr apwyntiad yn cael ei wneud trwy broses agored, ond hefyd y caiff y Llywodraeth input o ran sicrhau ein bod yn cael yr ymgeisydd iawn. Beth bynnag, nid yw hynny’n golygu mai apwyntiad y Llywodraeth yw.

The First Minister: Discussions have taken place, and I am very happy with the input that I will have in terms of the appointment of a Permanent Secretary. It is exceptionally important that the appointment is made through an open process, but it is also important that there is input from the Welsh Government in terms of ensuring that we get the right candidate. However, that does not mean that it is a Government appointment.

Andrew R.T. Davies: In 2009, the Welsh civil service was reorganised under seven directors general. I understand that six of the directors general have left in the last three years. Does that cause you concern, given that a well-run civil service is very important to any Government in implementing its policies? What does such a high turnover at a senior level of management indicate to you?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Yn 2009, ad-drefnwyd gwasanaeth sifil Cymru o dan saith cyfarwyddwr cyffredinol. Rwyf yn deall bod chwech o’r cyfarwyddwyr cyffredinol wedi gadael yn ystod y tair blynedd diwethaf. A yw hynny’n peri pryder i chi, o ystyried bod gwasanaeth sifil sy’n cael ei redeg yn dda yn bwysig iawn i unrhyw Lywodraeth o ran gweithredu ei pholisïau? Beth y mae trosiant uchel o’r fath ar lefel rheoli uwch yn ei ddangos i chi?

The First Minister: Staffing matters are for the Permanent Secretary. The incoming candidate will need to ensure that the Welsh civil service continues to improve.

Y Prif Weinidog: Rhywbeth i’r Ysgrifennydd Parhaol yw materion staffio. Bydd angen i’r ymgeisydd a benodir sicrhau bod gwasanaeth sifil Cymru yn parhau i wella.

Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes
Business Statement and Announcement

The Record

The Minister for Finance and Leader of the House (Jane Hutt): I have one change to report to this week’s planned business. Tomorrow’s oral statement on the report of the city regions task and finish group has been extended to 45 minutes. The business for the next three minutes is as shown on the business statement and announcement, which can be found among the agenda papers available to Members electronically.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Jane Hutt): Mae gennyf un newid i’w adrodd i’r busnes a drefnwyd ar gyfer yr wythnos hon. Mae datganiad llafar yfory ar adroddiad y tasglu gorchwyl a gorffen ar  ranbarthau dinas wedi cael ei ymestyn i 45 munud. Dangosir y busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf yn y datganiad a chyhoeddiad busnes, sydd i’w gael ymhlith papurau’r agenda sydd ar gael i Aelodau yn electronig.

Mark Isherwood: I call for two Welsh Government statements, the first of which is on investment in credit unions. The Association of British Credit Unions Limited has welcomed the announcement that the UK Government is to invest up to £38 million in credit unions over the next three years. The Department for Work and Pensions has advised that this £38 million includes Wales and that details of the procurement exercise will follow soon. I understand that some Welsh credit unions attended a briefing event with the DWP in Birmingham last year. It would therefore be helpful if this Assembly could learn what engagement the Welsh Government is having with this process, given that it affects credit unions in Wales, to ensure effective joint working between the two Governments on this agenda.

Mark Isherwood: Rwyf yn galw am ddau ddatganiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae’r cyntaf ohonynt ar fuddsoddi mewn undebau credyd. Mae Cymdeithas Undebau Credyd Prydain Cyfyngedig wedi croesawu’r cyhoeddiad bod Llywodraeth y DU yn buddsoddi hyd at £38 miliwn mewn undebau credyd dros y tair blynedd nesaf. Dywedodd yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau fod y £38 miliwn yn cynnwys Cymru ac y bydd manylion yr ymarfer caffael yn dilyn yn fuan. Rwy’n deall bod rhai undebau credyd o Gymru wedi mynd i ddigwyddiad briffio gyda’r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau yn Birmingham y llynedd. Felly, byddai’n ddefnyddiol pe bai’r Cynulliad yn cael gwybod pa ymgysylltiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei chael â’r broses hon, o ystyried ei bod yn effeithio ar undebau credyd yng Nghymru, er mwyn sicrhau cydweithio effeithiol rhwng y ddwy Lywodraeth ar yr agenda hwn.

Secondly, in a similar vein, I call for a Welsh Government statement in the context of the announcement last week that the UK Department for Work and Pensions is recruiting a disabled people’s user-led organisations’ ambassador for Wales to ensure that the budget for disability employment, which is being fully protected, helps more disabled people into work in Wales. The UK Government is focusing on regions where Access to Work has not been widely used, such as in Wales, and it wishes to work with user groups, as well as businesses, to encourage employment. It would, again, be helpful to have a statement to understand how the Welsh Government will engage in what is a shared agenda, involving both devolved and non-devolved aspects.

Yn ail, yn yr un modd, galwaf am ddatganiad gan Lywodraeth Cymru yng nghyd-destun y cyhoeddiad yr wythnos diwethaf bod Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau y DU yn recriwtio llysgennad sefydliadau ar gyfer pobl anabl a arweinir gan ddefnyddwyr i sicrhau bod y gyllideb ar gyfer cyflogi pobl anabl, sy’n cael ei gwarchod yn llawn, yn helpu mwy o bobl anabl i gael gwaith yng Nghymru. Mae Llywodraeth y DU yn canolbwyntio ar ranbarthau lle na chafodd Mynediad at Waith ei ddefnyddio’n helaeth, fel Cymru, ac mae’n dymuno gweithio gyda grwpiau defnyddwyr, yn ogystal â busnesau, i annog cyflogaeth. Unwaith eto, byddai’n ddefnyddiol cael datganiad i ddeall sut y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymgysylltu â’r hyn sy’n agenda a rennir, sy’n cynnwys agweddau datganoledig ac agweddau nad ydynt wedi’u eu datganoli.

Jane Hutt: In responding to Mark Isherwood’s request for a statement, I have to say that we have had no detail from the Department for Work and Pensions in terms of the credit union investment. We are proud that we have a very good record of investment in credit unions in Wales, which I know is supported across the parties. That has certainly been a priority of this Welsh Labour Government, in relation to the particular importance of credit unions. The Minister will update as and when necessary on that response to the DWP.

Jane Hutt: Wrth ymateb i gais Mark Isherwood am ddatganiad, mae’n rhaid imi ddweud na chawsom unrhyw fanylion gan yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau ynghylch y buddsoddiad mewn undebau credyd. Rydym yn falch bod gennym hanes da iawn o fuddsoddi mewn undebau credyd yng Nghymru, a gwn fod hyn yn cael ei gefnogi ar draws y pleidiau. Bu hynny yn sicr yn flaenoriaeth i’r Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru hon, mewn perthynas â phwysigrwydd arbennig undebau credyd. Bydd y Gweinidog yn rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf yn ôl yr angen am yr ymateb i’r Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau.

In terms of recent DWP announcements on the allocation of funds to help disabled people, ensuring that disabled people can access work, we are very concerned about its response to Remploy and our representations to it and the fact that it was not prepared to consider us having the ability to respond to that through a transfer of powers and responsibilities. So, we await clarity on the allocations, which we must ensure then meet the needs of disabled people in terms of employment opportunities.

O ran cyhoeddiadau diweddar yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau ar ddyrannu arian i helpu pobl anabl, gan sicrhau bod pobl anabl yn cael mynediad i waith, rydym yn bryderus iawn am ei hymateb i Remploy a’n sylwadau iddi a’r ffaith nad oedd yn barod i ystyried rhoi’r gallu inni ymateb i hynny drwy drosglwyddo pwerau a chyfrifoldebau. Felly, rydym yn aros am eglurder ar y dyraniadau, ac mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau eu bod wedyn yn ateb anghenion pobl anabl o ran cyfleoedd cyflogaeth.

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Minister, I have asked you on several occasions when the Government will be in a position to make a statement on the inquiry into the All Wales Ethnic Minority Association. I first raised this issue with you in January and, six months later, we are no closer to having a statement by the Government on this inquiry. If the intention is to publish the report in the summer, will you give an undertaking to the Chamber this afternoon that the Assembly will be recalled so that we can scrutinise this report properly?

Rhodri Glyn Thomas: Weinidog, rwyf wedi gofyn ichi ar sawl achlysur pryd y bydd y Llywodraeth mewn sefyllfa i wneud datganiad am yr ymchwiliad i Gymdeithas Lleiafrifoedd Ethnig Cymru Gyfan. Codais y mater hwn gyda chi y tro cyntaf ym mis Ionawr a, chwe mis yn ddiweddarach, nid ydym yn nes at gael datganiad gan y Llywodraeth ar yr ymchwiliad hwn. Os mai’r bwriad yw cyhoeddi’r adroddiad yn yr haf, a wnewch chi roi ymrwymiad i’r Siambr y prynhawn yma y bydd y Cynulliad yn cael ei alw’n ôl fel y gallwn graffu ar yr adroddiad hwn yn iawn?

Jane Hutt: I suggest that the Member looks at not only the Public Accounts Committee’s website, but the Wales Audit Office’s website, because they have given an update on progress in terms of the value-for-money study. It is up to it, in terms of the work that it must undertake, when the WAO report will be presented to the Public Accounts Committee.

Jane Hutt: Rwyf yn awgrymu bod yr Aelod yn edrych nid yn unig ar wefan y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus, ond hefyd ar wefan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, oherwydd maent yn rhoi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y cynnydd o ran yr astudiaeth gwerth am arian. Mater i Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, o ran y gwaith y mae’n rhaid iddi ei wneud, yw pryd y bydd ei hadroddiad yn cael ei gyflwyno i’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Could we have a statement from the Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Food, Fisheries and European Programmes in relation to the catastrophe—I do not use that word lightly—that is being inflicted on the dairy industry at the moment? To have 4p taken out of the milk price equates to £250,000 a day being taken out of the rural economy in Wales. That has devastating implications for employment and for the sustainability of communities in rural areas. I would be most grateful if the Deputy Minister would be prepared to make an oral statement before the end of term. I appreciate that time is tight, but I cannot think of another example where £250,000 being taken out of a particular sector would not warrant an urgent statement from a Minister in this place.

Andrew R.T. Davies: A allwn gael datganiad gan y Dirprwy Weinidog Amaethyddiaeth, Bwyd, Pysgodfeydd a Rhaglenni Ewropeaidd mewn perthynas â’r drychineb—nid wyf yn defnyddio’r gair yn ysgafn—sy’n cael ei gwthio ar y diwydiant llaeth ar hyn o bryd? Mae cymryd 4c allan o bris llaeth yn cyfateb i gymryd £250,000 y dydd allan o’r economi wledig yng Nghymru. Mae gan hynny oblygiadau dinistriol i gyflogaeth a chynaliadwyedd cymunedau mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar iawn pe bai’r Dirprwy Weinidog yn barod i wneud datganiad llafar cyn diwedd y tymor. Rwyf yn sylweddoli bod amser yn brin, ond ni allaf feddwl am enghraifft arall lle na fyddai tynnu £250,000 o sector penodol yn haeddu datganiad brys gan Weinidog yn y lle hwn.

2.30 p.m.

 

Jane Hutt: As I know Andrew R.T. Davies is aware, the Deputy Minister for Agriculture, Food, Fisheries and European Programmes is in regular contact with the dairy industry. He held a summit with representatives last month at which the issues were fully aired. We support the voluntary code of practice on milk contracts, and he would not hesitate to introduce the less advantageous EU dairy package proposals should discussions fail to deliver the strong reforms that Government would like to see. The Deputy Minister will be issuing a written statement on this, as and when appropriate.

Jane Hutt: Gwn fod Andrew R.T. Davies yn ymwybodol bod y Dirprwy Weinidog Amaethyddiaeth, Bwyd, Pysgodfeydd a Rhaglenni Ewropeaidd yn cysylltu’n rheolaidd â’r diwydiant llaeth. Cynhaliodd gynhadledd â chynrychiolwyr fis diwethaf lle y trafodwyd y materion yn llawn. Rydym yn cefnogi’r cod ymarfer gwirfoddol yng nghyswllt cytundebau llaeth, ac ni fyddai ef yn oedi cyn cyflwyno cynigion pecyn llaeth llai manteisiol yr UE pe bai trafodaethau’n methu â chyflwyno’r diwygiadau mawr y mae’r Llywodraeth am eu gweld. Bydd y Dirprwy Weinidog yn cyhoeddi datganiad ysgrifenedig ar hyn pan fydd yn briodol gwneud hynny.

Darren Millar: Minister, can we have a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services on the role of community health councils in Wales? The Minister for health made a speech to a gathering of community health councils just a couple of weeks ago, in which it became clear that a gagging order was being issued. They were told that they should not be members of community health councils if they were against the reorganisation in their local health board area. We need some clarification on this and a statement from the Minister so that we can have a proper, full and frank discussion here in the Chamber.

Darren Millar: Weinidog, a allwn gael datganiad gan y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ar rôl cynghorau iechyd cymuned yng Nghymru? Traddododd y Gweinidog dros iechyd araith i gasgliad o gynghorau iechyd cymuned ychydig wythnosau yn ôl yn unig, lle y daeth yn amlwg bod gorchymyn cau ceg yn cael ei gyhoeddi. Dywedwyd wrthynt na ddylent fod yn aelodau o gynghorau iechyd cymuned os oeddent yn erbyn yr ad-drefnu yn eu hardal bwrdd iechyd lleol. Mae angen rhywfaint o eglurhad yn hyn o beth a datganiad gan y Gweinidog, er mwyn inni allu cael trafodaeth briodol, lawn ac agored yma yn y Siambr.

Jane Hutt: We never know what is going to come next from Darren Millar. He is undermining community health councils and the important role that they play, which we value and which the Minister for Health and Social Services respects. We never know what is coming next, I have to say.

Jane Hutt: Nid ydym byth yn gwybod beth y bydd Darren Millar yn ei wneud nesaf. Mae’n tanseilio cynghorau iechyd cymuned a’r rhan bwysig y maent yn ei chwarae, yr ydym yn ei gwerthfawrogi ac y mae’r Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn ei pharchu. Nid ydym byth yn gwybod beth sy’n dod nesaf, yn wir.

Antoinette Sandbach: Can we have a statement, perhaps in September, from the Minster for Environment and Sustainable Development on the action that he is taking to speak to insurers about protection for those living in flood zones? I am sure you will be aware that the agreement with the Association of British Insurers is due to expire quite soon, which is very important, given the amount of people affected across Wales but particularly in my region of North Wales. I believe that we are also in for a wet July, which may mean that many more people in my area are affected, and their concerns about whether they will be able to obtain insurance cover will be absolutely key.

Antoinette Sandbach: A allwn gael datganiad, efallai ym mis Medi, gan Weinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy ar y camau y mae’n eu cymryd i siarad ag yswirwyr ynghylch diogelu’r rheini sy’n byw mewn parthau llifogydd? Rwy’n siŵr y byddwch yn gwybod y bydd y cytundeb â Chymdeithas Yswirwyr Prydain yn dod i ben cyn bo hir, sy’n bwysig iawn, o ystyried faint o bobl yr effeithir arnynt ledled Cymru, ond yn arbennig yn fy rhanbarth i, sef Gogledd Cymru. Rwy’n credu mai’r rhagolygon yw y bydd mis Gorffennaf yn fis gwlyb, a all olygu yr effeithir ar lawer mwy o bobl yn fy ardal i. Bydd eu pryderon ynghylch a fyddant yn gallu cael yswiriant yn gwbl allweddol.

Jane Hutt: I know that the Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development is well aware of the issues relating to the agreement with the Association of British Insurers. That is particularly critical in light of the flooding events that have taken place in Wales and across the UK. He will be engaging accordingly, not just in his role, but with UK Ministers as well.

Jane Hutt: Gwn fod Gweinidog yr Amgylchedd a Datblygu Cynaliadwy yn ymwybodol iawn o’r materion sy’n ymwneud â’r cytundeb â Chymdeithas Yswirwyr Prydain. Mae hynny’n arbennig o bwysig o ystyried y llifogydd a fu yng Nghymru a ledled y DU. Bydd yn ymgysylltu yn unol â hynny, nid yn unig yn rhinwedd ei rôl, ond â Gweinidogion y DU hefyd.

Datganiad: Y Dystiolaeth sy’n Tanategu’r Achos dros Ad-drefnu’r GIG yng Nghymru
Statement: The Evidence Underpinning the Case for Reconfiguring the NHS in Wales

The Record

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Lesley Griffiths): This statement forms part of a much wider, important debate on the future of our NHS in Wales. I entirely accept that the job of the opposition is to hold the Government of the day to account. However, I simply cannot allow political posturing to block the path of good government being done. Be under no illusions: good government means taking the tough decisions on the NHS that enable it to be safe and sustainable in the future. Let us all be clear. This attack is political hypocrisy of the worst kind, and any opposition worthy of the name should be ashamed of itself. This morning, we have been confronted by a supposed story of 'conniving’ interference in an entirely independent report. The allegations are that my senior officials, a respected academic and I somehow conspired to deceive the Welsh public. These allegations are utterly without foundation, and I am appalled by this attack. Dragging Professor Marcus Longley’s good name through the mud in this way is an unedifying spectacle.

Y Gweinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Lesley Griffiths): Mae’r datganiad hwn yn rhan o ddadl bwysig a llawer ehangach ar ddyfodol ein GIG yng Nghymru. Rwy’n derbyn yn llwyr mai swydd yr wrthblaid yw dwyn y Llywodraeth ar y pryd i gyfrif. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf ganiatáu i ymhonni gwleidyddol rwystro’r gwaith o lywodraethu’n dda. Peidied neb â chamgymryd: i lywodraethu’n dda, rhaid gwneud y penderfyniadau anodd ynglŷn â’r GIG sy’n ei alluogi i fod yn ddiogel ac yn gynaliadwy yn y dyfodol. Gadewch inni gyd fod yn glir. Mae’r ymosodiad hwn yn enghraifft o’r rhagrith gwleidyddol gwaethaf, a dylai unrhyw wrthblaid sy’n deilwng o’r enw deimlo cywilydd. Y bore yma, cyflwynwyd stori honedig inni am ymyrraeth ag adroddiad gwbl annibynnol drwy 'gydgynllwynio’. Honnir bod fy uwch swyddogion, academydd a berchir, a minnau  rywsut wedi cynllwynio i dwyllo cyhoedd Cymru. Mae’r honiadau hyn yn gwbl ddi-sail, ac rwyf wedi fy mrawychu gan yr ymosodiad hwn. Mae pardduo enw da yr Athro Marcus Longley fel hyn yn warthus.

Professor Longley was commissioned by NHS chief executives, entirely independently of Welsh Government, to produce a report that assessed the evidence for changing the configuration of health services in Wales. He was commissioned because of his impeccable reputation and extensive record of delivering sound, evidence-based advice in respect of various challenges faced by the public sector in Wales over a number of years. Anyone who knows Professor Longley will appreciate that what distinguishes him from some others is his independent thinking and integrity. To accuse him of 'conniving’ with my officials and me is utterly reprehensible. Professor Longley spent many months researching and preparing his report. During that time, he built and managed a like-minded team of academics and researchers around him to assist with the task. Together, they left no stone unturned in the pursuit of evidence, which, of course, included seeking knowledge, information and advice from a number of senior officials in the Welsh Government. Indeed, it would have been remiss of the team not to consult with my officials, where appropriate.

Comisiynwyd yr Athro Longley gan brif weithredwyr y GIG, yn gwbl annibynnol ar Lywodraeth Cymru, i lunio adroddiad a fyddai’n asesu’r dystiolaeth ynghylch newid cyfluniad gwasanaethau iechyd yng Nghymru. Fe’i comisiynwyd oherwydd ei enw da di-fai a’r ffaith bod ganddo hanes helaeth o ddarparu cyngor cadarn, wedi’i seilio ar dystiolaeth, ynghylch gwahanol heriau y mae’r sector cyhoeddus yng Nghymru wedi’u hwynebu dros nifer o flynyddoedd. Bydd unrhyw un sy’n adnabod yr Athro Longley yn gwerthfawrogi mai’r hyn sy’n ei wneud yn wahanol i rai eraill yw ei onestrwydd a’r ffaith ei fod yn annibynnol ei feddwl. Mae ei gyhuddo ef o gydgynllwynio â’m swyddogion a minnau yn gwbl resynus. Treuliodd yr Athro Longley fisoedd lawer yn gwneud gwaith ymchwil ar gyfer ei adroddiad ac yn ei baratoi. Yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw, daeth â thîm o academyddion o’r un anian ynghyd, ac fe’u rheolodd, i gynorthwyo â’r dasg. Gyda’i gilydd, ni wnaethant anwybyddu dim wrth fynd ar drywydd tystiolaeth, a oedd, wrth gwrs, yn cynnwys chwilio am wybodaeth a chyngor gan nifer o uwch swyddogion yn Llywodraeth Cymru. Yn wir, byddai’r tîm wedi bod yn esgeulus pe na bai wedi ymgynghori â’m swyddogion, lle yr oedd hynny’n briodol.

Professor Longley acknowledges in his report that, in some areas, the evidence was lacking. Nevertheless, he and his team strove tirelessly to bring all relevant evidence to bear, to paint as honest and accurate a picture of the challenges and opportunities as possible. Crucially, he was also realistic and pragmatic about the levels of public funding that are likely to be available in the years ahead.

Mae’r Athro Longley yn cydnabod yn ei adroddiad fod y dystiolaeth yn brin mewn rhai meysydd. Serch hynny, ymdrechodd ef a’i dîm yn ddiflino i gyflwyno’r holl dystiolaeth berthnasol, er mwyn creu darlun mor onest a chywir o’r heriau a’r cyfleoedd ag y bo modd. Yn hanfodol, roedd hefyd yn realistig ac yn ymarferol ynghylch lefelau’r arian cyhoeddus sy’n debygol o fod ar gael yn y blynyddoedd i ddod.

The report, 'The Best Configuration of Hospital Services for Wales’, is rich in data, is based on evidence, and is crafted not to dictate opinion but to stimulate debate and discussion. Can any one Member draw attention to one paragraph, one sentence, or one word that is not based on evidence or analysis? The report stands on its own merits and is a credit to Professor Longley and his team. I had no direct involvement in the formation of this report.

Mae’r adroddiad, 'Y Trefniant Gorau ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Ysbytai Cymru’, yn gyfoethog o ran data ac wedi’i seilio ar dystiolaeth, ac nid yw wedi’i lunio i bennu barn ond i ysgogi dadl a thrafodaeth. A all unrhyw Aelod dynnu sylw at un paragraff, un frawddeg, neu un gair nad yw’n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth neu ddadansoddiad? Mae rhinweddau’r adroddiad yn glir o’i ddarllen, ac mae’n dwyn bri i’r Athro Longley a’i dîm. Nid oedd gennyf unrhyw gysylltiad uniongyrchol â’r gwaith o lunio’r adroddiad hwn.

I actually welcome the release of these documents, as I believe that they clearly demonstrate that I did not seek to influence or change the report in any way. There is no evidence either to believe that my officials sought to influence or change the report. They were merely responding to requests for information or advice being sought on the presentation of the report. They prove, I believe, that the process around the preparation of the report is irreproachable.

Rwy’n croesawu cyhoeddi’r dogfennau hyn, mewn gwirionedd, gan fy mod yn credu eu bod yn dangos yn glir nad oeddwn yn ceisio dylanwadu ar yr adroddiad nac ei newid mewn unrhyw ffordd. Nid oes tystiolaeth ychwaith fod fy swyddogion wedi ceisio dylanwadu ar yr adroddiad neu ei newid. Roeddent yn ymateb i geisiadau am wybodaeth neu gyngor ynghylch y modd y cyflwynwyd yr adroddiad yn unig. Credaf eu bod yn profi y bu’r broses o baratoi’r adroddiad yn ddi-fai.

Some Members have behaved utterly reprehensibly in their remarks earlier today. They are still attempting to divert attention away from the clear evidence in the report. I am saddened, too, that some of my senior officials are having their reputations besmirched. They are only doing the job that they are being paid to do.

Mae rhai Aelodau wedi ymddwyn yn gwbl geryddadwy drwy gyfrwng eu sylwadau yn gynharach heddiw. Maent yn dal i geisio tynnu sylw oddi wrth y dystiolaeth glir yn yr adroddiad. Mae’n fy nhristáu, hefyd, fod enwau rhai o’m uwch swyddogion yn cael eu pardduo. Yr oll y maent yn ei wneud yw’r swydd y maent yn cael eu talu i’w wneud.

Local NHS services are always a sensitive and emotive area, and every politician knows how difficult it is to achieve a consensus on change. The people of Wales have every right to have the benefits of change explained clearly and honestly. Poll after poll has shown, much to the opposition Members’ distaste, that the people of Wales trust the Labour Government with the NHS in Wales. We built it, and we will ensure that it continues to serve the people of Wales long into the future.

Mae gwasanaethau GIG lleol bob amser yn faes sensitif ac emosiynol, ac mae pob gwleidydd yn gwybod pa mor anodd yw sicrhau consensws ynghylch newid. Mae gan bobl Cymru bob hawl i gael eglurhad clir a gonest o’r manteision sy’n gysylltiedig â newid. Mae un arolwg barn ar ôl y llall wedi dangos, er mawr atgasedd i Aelodau’r gwrthbleidiau, fod gan bobl Cymru ffydd yn y Llywodraeth Lafur o ran y GIG yng Nghymru. Ni a’i hadeiladodd, a byddwn yn sicrhau ei fod yn parhau i wasanaethu pobl Cymru am flynyddoedd maith i ddod.

Finally, nothing in this process has lacked in transparency. I have neither lied to nor connived with anyone. This report was commissioned by the NHS through the NHS Confederation, and was researched by a well-known academic. This is a blatant political attack that seeks to undermine my leadership of the NHS in Wales at the expense of the hard-earned reputations of two people who have done nothing but work hard to improve the NHS in Wales. [Applause.]

Yn olaf, ni fu diffyg tryloywder yn unrhyw ran o’r broses hon. Nid wyf wedi dweud celwydd nac wedi cydgynllwynio â neb. Comisiynwyd yr adroddiad hwn gan y GIG drwy Gydffederasiwn y GIG, a chafodd ei ymchwilio gan academydd adnabyddus. Mae hwn yn ymosodiad gwleidyddol amlwg sy’n ceisio tanseilio fy arweinyddiaeth i ar y GIG yng Nghymru ar draul enwau da haeddiannol dau berson nad ydynt wedi gwneud dim byd ond gweithio’n galed i wella’r GIG yng Nghymru. [Cymeradwyaeth.]

Darren Millar rose

Darren Millar a gododd

The Presiding Officer: Order. Darren Millar, I have not called you to speak yet. Quite a number of Members wish to speak on this item, so I plead with everyone to keep their contributions as short as possible so that I can call as many Members as possible. It would be helpful, therefore, if Members could concentrate on questions. I now call Darren Millar.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Darren Millar, nid wyf wedi galw arnoch i siarad eto. Mae cryn nifer o Aelodau’n dymuno siarad ynghylch yr eitem hon, felly rwy’n ymbil ar bawb i gadw eu cyfraniadau mor fyr ag y bo modd fel y gallaf alw ar gymaint o Aelodau ag y bo modd. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol, felly, pe gallai Aelodau ganolbwyntio ar gwestiynau. Galwaf ar Darren Millar.

Darren Millar: In May, the Welsh NHS Confederation published a report that you claimed, Minister, was completely independent and helped to cement and underpin NHS reforms. What is now clear from the e-mails and correspondence that have been published under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 is that the report was far from independent. Senior officials in your department were conniving with Professor Longley—[Interruption.]

Darren Millar: Ym mis Mai, cyhoeddodd Cydffederasiwn GIG Cymru adroddiad y gwnaethoch honni, Weinidog, ei fod yn gwbl annibynnol ac yn helpu i gadarnhau ac ategu’r diwygiadau i’r GIG. Yr hyn sydd bellach yn amlwg o’r e-byst a’r ohebiaeth a gyhoeddwyd o dan Ddeddf Rhyddid Gwybodaeth 2000 yw bod yr adroddiad yn bell o fod yn annibynnol. Bu uwch swyddogion yn eich adran yn cydgynllwynio â’r Athro Longley—[Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Llywydd: Trefn.

Darren Millar: Thank you. Senior officials in your department were conniving with Professor Longley to produce a report with a pre-determined conclusion, to pre-empt the unpopular reorganisation of health services across Wales. I will quote from some of those e-mails from Professor Longley to officials in your department: there was a search for 'killer facts’, looking for evidence because the evidence was not as 'incisive’ as your officials and Professor Longley might have hoped, and looking for evidence to 'sharpen up the document’ to support the case for change, which was weak.

Darren Millar: Diolch yn fawr. Bu uwch swyddogion yn eich adran yn cydgynllwynio â’r Athro Longley i lunio adroddiad a oedd â chasgliad a bennwyd ymlaen llaw, er mwyn achub y blaen ar y broses amhoblogaidd o ad-drefnu gwasanaethau iechyd ledled Cymru. Dyfynnaf o rai o’r e-byst gan yr Athro Longley at swyddogion yn eich adran: chwiliwyd am ffeithiau na ellid dadlau â hwy, neu 'killer facts’, ac am dystiolaeth oherwydd nad oedd y dystiolaeth mor dreiddgar ag y byddai eich swyddogion a’r Athro Longley wedi ei obeithio; chwiliwyd hefyd am dystiolaeth i roi min ar y ddogfen er mwyn cefnogi’r achos dros newid, a oedd yn wan.

Your medical director in NHS Wales responded to some of these e-mails by attempting to influence the editorial content and presentation of the report by asking Professor Longley to set out a more 'persuasive vision’ and to be 'more positive’ about the case for change. We know that the report has been known by two titles. Cabinet Members who are now bickering will know that it had two titles.

Atebodd eich cyfarwyddwr meddygol yn y GIG yng Nghymru rai o’r e-byst hyn drwy geisio dylanwadu ar gynnwys golygyddol a chyflwyniad yr adroddiad, gan ofyn i’r Athro Longley gyflwyno gweledigaeth fwy argyhoeddiadol ac i fod yn fwy cadarnhaol ynghylch yr achos dros newid. Gwyddom y rhoddwyd dau deitl i’r adroddiad. Bydd yr Aelodau sydd yn y Cabinet ac sy’n ymgecru yn awr yn gwybod ei fod wedi cael dau deitl.

Minister, I will go to questions now and I would appreciate some straight answers from you. The report was originally called 'The Case for Change’ and was discussed by your Cabinet in March 2012. Why did the title change to 'The Best Configuration of Hospital Services for Wales’? Do you not agree that the title 'The Case for Change’ seems to indicate that there was a predetermined conclusion? Secondly, did you know, Minister, about the discussions held between officials in your department and Professor Longley? A simple 'yes’ or 'no’ will do as an answer. Secondly—

Weinidog, byddaf yn gofyn cwestiynau yn awr a byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi cael atebion didwyll gennych. Teitl gwreiddiol yr adroddiad oedd 'Y Ddadl dros Newid’, a chafodd ei drafod gan eich Cabinet ym mis Mawrth 2012. Pam y newidiwyd y teitl i 'Y Trefniant Gorau ar gyfer Gwasanaethau Ysbytai yng Nghymru’? Onid ydych yn cytuno bod y teitl 'Y Ddadl dros Newid’ yn tueddu i ddangos bod casgliad a bennwyd ymlaen llaw? Yn ail, a oeddech yn gwybod, Weinidog, am y trafodaethau a fu rhwng swyddogion yn eich adran a’r Athro Longley? Bydd ateb 'oeddwn’ neu 'nac oeddwn’ yn ddigon. Yn ail—

The Presiding Officer: Order. You mean 'thirdly’.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. 'Yn drydydd’ yr ydych yn ei feddwl.

Darren Millar: Thirdly, if you did know, prior to the publication of Professor Longley’s report, will you apologise for misleading the Assembly and the people of Wales about the fact that it was an independent report? Lastly, if you did not know, do you accept that you do not have a grip on your department and that it is time for you to resign? [Interruption.]

Darren Millar: Yn drydydd, os oeddech chi’n gwybod, cyn cyhoeddi adroddiad yr Athro Longley, a wnewch ymddiheuro am gamarwain y Cynulliad a phobl Cymru ynghylch y ffaith bod yr adroddiad yn annibynnol? Yn olaf, os nad oeddech yn gwybod, a ydych yn derbyn nad oes gennych reolaeth ar eich adran a’i bod yn amser ichi ymddiswyddo? [Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. There were four specific questions there. Minister, would you like to reply?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Roedd pedwar cwestiwn penodol yno. Weinidog, a hoffech ymateb?

Lesley Griffiths: I am very sad that Darren Millar continues to smear the good name of my officials and Professor Longley. This is obviously a personal attack on me that tries to destabilise what the Government is trying to seek for the NHS in Wales. I am fair game, but I am very sad that he continues to besmirch the good name of Professor Longley and my senior officials.

Lesley Griffiths: Mae’n fy nhristáu’n fawr fod Darren Millar yn parhau i bardduo enw da fy swyddogion a’r Athro Longley. Mae  hyn yn amlwg yn ymosodiad personol arnaf i sy’n ceisio ansefydlogi’r hyn y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ceisio’i wneud ar gyfer y GIG yng Nghymru. Mae hawl iddo fy nhargedu i, ond mae’n fy nhristáu’n fawr ei fod yn parhau i bardduo enw da yr Athro Longley a’m uwch swyddogion.

In answer to his questions, it is not my report so I did not change the title. He says that it is clear from the e-mails, but if he had bothered to be in the Chamber for the start of questions to the First Minister, he would have heard the First Minister challenge the opposition leaders by asking 'Where is the evidence?’ I ask the same of him: where is the evidence? He needs to think very carefully about what he has said in the media this morning and again in the Chamber, and really reflect on what he has said. He has done himself a great deal of damage.

I ateb ei gwestiynau, nid fy adroddiad i yw ef, felly ni newidiais y teitl. Mae’n dweud ei bod yn glir o’r e-byst, ond pe bai wedi trafferthu i fod yn y Siambr ar gyfer dechrau’r cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog, byddai wedi clywed y Prif Weinidog yn herio arweinwyr y gwrthbleidiau drwy ofyn 'Ble mae’r dystiolaeth?’ Gofynnaf innau iddo: ble mae’r dystiolaeth? Mae angen iddo feddwl yn ofalus am yr hyn y mae wedi’i ddweud yn y cyfryngau y bore yma ac eto yn y Siambr, a myfyrio o ddifrif ynghylch yr hyn y mae wedi’i ddweud. Mae wedi gwneud drwg mawr iddo’i hun.

Elin Jones: Minister, I am disappointed with the tone and content of your statement this afternoon. You were not asked for an urgent statement today to discuss or defend Marcus Longley. He is not accountable to the Chamber, and his academic credibility is not a matter for us. You are accountable to us for your words and your actions. My interest today is in your words and not in Marcus Longley’s. Your top civil servants were discussing the conclusions, style and statistics in the report during its writing. That is fact, proved by the correspondence released today. Your statement to the Assembly on 9 May described that report as 'independent’ twice. You have stated again today that it is an entirely independent report. Will you explain carefully to me how you believe that a report written while the content was the subject of correspondence between the author and your chief officials is, in your opinion, independent?

Elin Jones: Weinidog, rwyf wedi fy siomi gan naws a chynnwys eich datganiad y prynhawn yma. Ni ofynnwyd ichi am ddatganiad brys heddiw i drafod Marcus Longley neu i’w amddiffyn. Nid yw ef yn atebol i’r Siambr, ac nid yw ei hygrededd academaidd yn fater i ni. Rydych chi yn atebol i ni am eich geiriau a’ch gweithredoedd. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb heddiw yn eich geiriau chi ac nid yng ngeiriau Marcus Longley. Roedd eich gweision sifil uchaf yn trafod y casgliadau, yr arddull, a’r ystadegau yn yr adroddiad yn ystod y broses o’i ysgrifennu. Mae hynny’n wir, a chaiff ei brofi gan yr ohebiaeth a gyhoeddwyd heddiw. Yn eich datganiad i’r Cynulliad ar 9 Mai, caiff yr adroddiad hwnnw ei alw’n 'annibynnol’ ddwywaith. Rydych wedi dweud eto heddiw fod yr adroddiad yn un  cwbl annibynnol. A wnewch egluro yn ofalus i mi sut rydych yn credu bod adroddiad a ysgrifennwyd tra oedd y cynnwys yn destun gohebiaeth rhwng yr awdur a’ch prif swyddogion yn annibynnol, yn eich barn chi?

Lesley Griffiths: I referred to that in my statement. I had no influence on or association with the writing of the report. The only role my officials had was in responding to specific requests from Professor Longley to aid his research. If those requests had not been made, the report would not have been balanced. We need to look at the whole report, not at e-mails that are being taken totally out of context. The report goes to great lengths to point out the weaknesses in the data. There are whole paragraphs that point out that there are no data on many issues and that the research was not always conclusive. If there was collusion with the Welsh Government or conniving with me, or if Professor Longley was a 'stooge’, as somebody has referred to him, why would he say that? I have answered your question. As someone who was recently in Government,  you know how it works and you know that officials would be asked for such data.

Lesley Griffiths: Cyfeiriais at hynny yn fy natganiad. Ni ddylanwadais ar y broses o ysgrifennu’r adroddiad o gwbl, ac nid oedd gennyf unrhyw gysylltiad â’r broses honno. Yr unig rôl a oedd gan fy swyddogion oedd ymateb i geisiadau penodol gan yr Athro Longley i gynorthwyo ei waith ymchwil. Pe na wnaed y ceisiadau hynny, ni fyddai’r adroddiad wedi bod yn gytbwys. Mae angen inni edrych ar yr adroddiad cyfan, ac nid ar e-byst sy’n cael eu tynnu o’u cyd-destun yn llwyr. Gwneir ymdrech fawr yn yr adroddiad i dynnu sylw at y gwendidau yn y data. Mae paragraffau cyfan sy’n tynnu sylw at y ffaith nad oes dim data ynghylch nifer o faterion, ac nad oedd canlyniad y gwaith ymchwil yn bendant bob amser. Os cyd-gynllwyniwyd â Llywodraeth Cymru neu â mi, neu os oedd yr Athro Longley yn was bach, fel y dywedodd rhywun, pam y byddai’n dweud hynny? Rwyf wedi ateb eich cwestiwn. A chithau’n rhywun a oedd yn y Llywodraeth yn ddiweddar, rydych yn gwybod sut mae’n gweithio ac rydych yn gwybod y byddai swyddogion yn cael cais am ddata o’r fath.

2.45 p.m.

 

Kirsty Williams: Thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. First, for the record, I would like to say that there is nothing unusual or remiss in the local health boards’ commissioning of a report of this kind and there is nothing unusual or remiss in any researcher contacting officials in the Welsh Government to obtain data and statistical analysis that the Government would hold and for which it would be the only source for that data needed to compile the report. However, would you agree with me that the e-mails not only reveal correspondence that was asking for data or statistical analysis, but, in effect, ask for comments on draft reports over a number of months?

Kirsty Williams: Diolch, Weinidog, am eich datganiad y prynhawn yma. Yn gyntaf, hoffwn ddweud ar goedd nad oes unrhyw beth anarferol nag esgeulus yn y ffaith bod byrddau iechyd lleol yn comisiynu adroddiad o’r fath ac nad oes dim anarferol nag esgeulus yn y ffaith bod unrhyw ymchwilydd yn cysylltu â swyddogion yn Llywodraeth Cymru i gael data a dadansoddiadau ystadegol a fyddai gan y Llywodraeth, ac mai’r Llywodraeth fyddai’r unig ffynhonnell ar gyfer y data hwnnw a oedd ei angen i lunio’r adroddiad. Fodd bynnag, a fyddech yn cytuno â mi bod y negeseuon e-bost nid yn unig yn datgelu gohebiaeth a oedd yn gofyn am ddata neu ddadansoddiadau ystadegol, ond, i bob pwrpas, yn gofyn am sylwadau ar adroddiadau drafft dros nifer o fisoedd?

On 17 January, an e-mail was received by a senior official in your department that asked for any other relevant evidence—and it used the term 'the killer facts’—that would be useful. It also referred to a conversation that had happened the week before. Were you aware that that official had met Marcus Longley, was that conversation minuted, and were the subjects of that conversation available for public scrutiny?

Ar 17 Ionawr, cafodd uwch swyddog yn eich adran e-bost a oedd yn gofyn am unrhyw dystiolaeth berthnasol arall—defnyddiodd y term 'killer facts’—a fyddai yn ddefnyddiol. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at sgwrs a gafwyd yr wythnos cynt. A oeddech yn ymwybodol bod y swyddog hwnnw wedi cyfarfod â Marcus Longley, a gafodd y sgwrs honno ei chofnodi, ac a oedd pynciau’r sgwrs honno ar gael i’r cyhoedd graffu arnynt?

On 24 January, a draft was sent to one of your officials.

Ar 24 Ionawr, anfonwyd drafft at un o’ch swyddogion.

'In the meantime…I’d be very grateful for your comments on the attached, which is a (still incomplete) draft of the first of the papers we are producing…They should summarise the key evidence, in an objective but accessible way, with a view to allowing the interested lay reader to draw their own conclusions…That’s the aim… but do they succeed?! The drafts are still work in progress, but should be complete enough for you to get a sense of the whole.’

Yn y cyfamser...byddwn yn ddiolchgar iawn am eich sylwadau ar y ddogfen atodedig, sy’n ddrafft (dal yn anghyflawn) o’r papur cyntaf o’r holl bapurau yr ydym yn eu cynhyrchu...Dylent grynhoi’r dystiolaeth allweddol, mewn ffordd wrthrychol ond hygyrch, gyda’r bwriad o ganiatáu i’r darllenydd lleyg sydd â diddordeb lunio ei gasgliadau ei hun...Dyna’r nod... ond ydynt yn llwyddo?! Mae’r gwaith ar y drafftiau yn dal i fynd rhagddo, ond dylent fod yn ddigon cyflawn i chi gael syniad o’r gwaith yn ei gyfanrwydd.

Why would an author of a report not commissioned by your Government—as you have said today, it is not your report or your Government’s report—be interested in the views of senior officials on a draft? Why is that the case? Were you aware that the author of this report was consulting with your officials on the content and style of the report?

Pam y byddai gan awdur adroddiad a gomisiynwyd gan eich Llywodraeth—fel yr ydych wedi’i ddweud heddiw, nid eich adroddiad chi na’ch Llywodraeth ydyw—ddiddordeb ym marn uwch swyddogion ar ddrafft? Pam bod hynny’n wir? A oeddech yn gwybod bod awdur yr adroddiad hwn yn ymgynghori â’ch swyddogion ar gynnwys ac arddull yr adroddiad?

On 22 February, once again, another senior official was sent a copy of a draft of part of the report for his comments. Once again, why would another official in your department be asked for his comments on the appropriateness of a report that was not commissioned by your Government? Surely, if the report’s author was interested in consulting anyone at this stage, it would be those people who had commissioned the report. As you have quite clearly stated today, that was not your Government.

Ar 22 Chwefror, unwaith eto, anfonwyd copi o ddrafft o’ ran o’r adroddiad at uwch swyddog arall i gael ei sylwadau. Unwaith eto, pam y byddai swyddog arall yn eich adran yn cael cais i roi ei sylwadau ar briodoldeb adroddiad na chafodd ei gomisiynu gan eich Llywodraeth? Pe bai gan awdur yr adroddiad ddiddordeb mewn ymgynghori ag unrhyw un yr adeg honno, y bobl a oedd wedi comisiynu’r adroddiad fyddai hynny. Fel yr ydych wedi’i ddweud yn eithaf clir heddiw, nid eich Llywodraeth chi wnaeth hynny.

That e-mail to the medical director on 22 February stated:

Roedd yr e-bost hwnnw at y cyfarwyddwr meddygol ar 22 Chwefror yn datgan:

'However, on reflection the evidence as presented does not seem to be as incisive as we might have hoped. Is there any further evidence that you could provide to sharpen up the document and its impact in supporting the case for change?’

Fodd bynnag, ar ôl ystyried, nid yw’r dystiolaeth fel y’i cyflwynwyd yn ymddangos mor dreiddgar ag y byddem wedi’i  obeithio. A oes unrhyw dystiolaeth bellach y gallech ei darparu i roi min ar y  ddogfen a’i heffaith o ran cefnogi’r achos dros newid?

That was not a request for hard, raw data; that was a specific request with a specific intention behind it.

Nid cais am ddata caled, creiddiol oedd hwnnw; roedd hwnnw’n gais gyda bwriad penodol y tu ôl iddo.

That e-mail also said

Dywedodd yr e-bost hefyd

'If you are attending the Clinical Forum later, perhaps we could have a quick chat about this.’

Os ydych yn mynychu’r Fforwm Clinigol yn ddiweddarach, efallai y gallem gael sgwrs gyflym am hyn.

Did your medical director meet the author of this report on 22 February, is that chat minuted, and are the subjects discussed available for public scrutiny?

A wnaeth eich cyfarwyddwr meddygol gwrdd ag awdur yr adroddiad hwn ar 22 Chwefror, a gofnodwyd y sgwrs, ac a yw’r pynciau a drafodwyd ar gael i’r cyhoedd graffu arnynt?

On 4 March, were you aware that the medical director was discussing with the author of this report the details of a meeting held between other medical directors and the planners? Is it of concern to you that your medical director was offering up additional information?

Ar 4 Mawrth, a oeddech yn ymwybodol bod y cyfarwyddwr meddygol yn trafod gydag awdur yr adroddiad hwn fanylion cyfarfod a gynhaliwyd rhwng cyfarwyddwyr meddygol eraill a’r cynllunwyr? A yw’n destun pryder i chi fod eich cyfarwyddwr meddygol yn cynnig gwybodaeth ychwanegol?

'I wonder also if we could provide a list of new services and technologies that must be delivered and examples of other systems producing better outcomes and experience than us.’

Tybed hefyd a allem ddarparu rhestr o wasanaethau a thechnolegau newydd y mae’n rhaid eu cyflwyno ac enghreifftiau o systemau eraill sy’n cynhyrchu gwell canlyniadau a phrofiad na ni.

That is not data or statistics. That is offering information to go into the report. Were you aware that, on 9 March, the chief executive of NHS Wales wrote to congratulate the author of this report on its content? I quote:

Nid data nag ystadegau yw hynny. Mae hynny’n cynnig gwybodaeth i’w gynnwys yn yr’ adroddiad. A oeddech yn ymwybodol bod prif weithredwr GIG Cymru, ar 9 Mawrth, wedi ysgrifennu i longyfarch awdur yr adroddiad hwn ar ei gynnwys? Dyfynnaf:

'Just a quick note to thank you for your work on the case for change. I am aware that certain aspects are still subject to revision, but overall it is looking good. I am sure it will help change the tone in terms of the debate.’

Dim ond nodyn bach i ddiolch ichi am eich gwaith ar yr achos dros newid. Rwyf yn ymwybodol bod rhai agweddau yn dal i fod yn amodol ar adolygiad, ond yn gyffredinol mae’n edrych yn dda. Rwyf yn siŵr y bydd yn help i newid naws y ddadl.

Why did your—[Interruption.]

Pam wnaeth eich—[Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. The Minister will answer.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Bydd y Gweinidog yn ateb.  

Kirsty Williams: Why did your chief executive feel it necessary to see a copy of this report, a report that was not commissioned by him or your Government? Finally, on 22 March, there was another e-mail from another one of your officials, which read:

Kirsty Williams: Pam wnaeth eich prif weithredwr deimlo bod angen iddo weld copi o’r adroddiad hwn, nad oedd yn adroddiad a gomisiynwyd ganddo ef na’ch Llywodraeth? Yn olaf, ar 22 Mawrth, roedd e-bost arall gan un arall o’ch swyddogion, a oedd yn dweud:

'There was a suggestion today that inclusion of regional comparisons might be useful.’

Roedd awgrym heddiw y gallai cynnwys cymariaethau rhanbarthol fod yn ddefnyddiol.

Do you believe that that suggestion was looking to influence what was in the report and what your officials felt was missing and should be addressed? If that is not an example of trying to influence the contents, I do not know what is. The crucial issue, Minister, is that you said that this was an independent report. Throughout this process, your officials, at the most senior level, were in discussion with the author. Why was that the case when this report was not commissioned by you or your Government but by a different part of the NHS? Surely, any drafts offered up were not looking for statistical information or proof. What they were doing—

A ydych yn credu bod yr awgrym hwnnw yn ceisio dylanwadu ar yr hyn a oedd yn yr adroddiad a’r hyn y tybiai eich swyddogion a oedd ar goll, ac y dylid mynd i’r afael ag ef? Os nad yw hynny’n enghraifft o geisio dylanwadu ar y cynnwys, nid wyf yn gwybod beth sydd. Y mater hanfodol, Weinidog, yw eich bod wedi dweud bod hwn yn adroddiad annibynnol. Drwy gydol y broses hon, bu eich swyddogion, ar y lefel uchaf, yn trafod gyda’r awdur. Pam fod hynny wedi digwydd pan nad oedd yr adroddiad hwn wedi cael ei gomisiynu gennych chi na’ch Llywodraeth, ond gan wahanol ran o’r GIG? Siawns nad oedd unrhyw ddrafftiau a gynigiwyd yn chwilio am wybodaeth ystadegol na thystiolaeth. Yr hyn yr oeddent yn ei wneud—

The Presiding Officer: Order. I have a long list of speakers.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae gennyf restr hir o siaradwyr.

Kirsty Williams: They were making sure that there was approval at the highest level for the contents.

Kirsty Williams: Roeddynt yn gwneud yn siŵr bod y ’cynnwys yn cael ei gymeradwyo ar y lefel uchaf.

Lesley Griffiths: I say again that you need to produce evidence of collusion. Welsh Government officials responded to requests for information from Professor Longley and the NHS Confederation. We did not seek to influence or amend the content of the report. That was entirely a matter for the NHS Confederation and Professor Longley. You know from your time as Chair of the then Health and Social Services Committee that things have to change. This is just one report in a long line of reports that supports that.

Lesley Griffiths: Dywedaf eto bod angen ichi gynhyrchu tystiolaeth y bu cydgynllwynio. Ymatebodd swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru i geisiadau am wybodaeth gan yr Athro Longley a Chydffederasiwn y GIG. Ni wnaethom geisio dylanwadu ar gynnwys yr adroddiad na’i newid. Roedd hwnnw’n fater i Gydffederasiwn y GIG a’r Athro Longley yn llwyr. Byddwch yn gwybod o’ch amser fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol fod yn rhaid i bethau newid. Dim ond un adroddiad yw hwn mewn cyfres hir o adroddiadau sy’n cefnogi hynny.

Mark Drakeford: Minister, I agree with Elin Jones that Professor Longley’s views ought not to be the subject of our discussion this afternoon. However, as they have been called into question across the Chamber, I just want to say that I have known Professor Longley for many years, here in the Assembly and in the academic arena. I have not always agreed with him, and I have shared platforms with him at different times in Wales to debate different views on the Welsh health service and its policies. In all of that, he has always been an analyst of outstanding integrity, whether disagreeing with Government policy or endorsing aspects of it. Whatever he draws on, the views he expresses are his own. Do you agree, Minister, that those who have been so cavalier in attacking the reputation of others have succeeded only in damaging their own?

Mark Drakeford: Weinidog, rwyf yn cytuno ag Elin Jones na ddylai barn yr Athro Longley fod yn destun ein trafodaeth y prynhawn yma. Fodd bynnag, gan ei bod wedi cael ei chwestiynu ar draws y Siambr, rwyf eisiau dweud fy mod wedi adnabod yr Athro Longley ers blynyddoedd lawer, yma yn y Cynulliad ac yn y maes academaidd. Nid wyf bob amser wedi cytuno ag ef, ac rwyf wedi rhannu llwyfannau ag ef ar adegau gwahanol yng Nghymru mewn dadleuon ar wahanol safbwyntiau ar wasanaeth iechyd Cymru a’i bolisïau. Yn y cyfan o hynny, bu’n ddadansoddwr gonest tu hwnt, pe bai’n anghytuno â pholisi’r Llywodraeth neu’n cymeradwyo agweddau arno. Beth bynnag y bo’n cyfeirio ato, ei farn ef ei hun y mae’n ei mynegi. A ydych yn cytuno, Weinidog, nad yw’r rhai a fu mor ddi-hid wrth ymosod ar enw da eraill dim ond wedi llwyddo i niweidio enw da eu hunain?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I do. You made a very interesting point in saying that you have not always agreed with Professor Longley, because Professor Longley has certainly not always agreed with the Welsh Government. Therefore, to portray him as a stooge or someone who would connive with us is appalling. No, we are not here to discuss his reputation, but, equally, I cannot stand back. How are we ever going to get people to do work for us? I approach people to do such work. Professor Longley did a review of the community health councils for me. How are we going to get people to do work for us if this is the outcome?

Lesley Griffiths: Ydw, rwy’n cytuno. Gwnaethoch bwynt diddorol iawn drwy ddweud nad ydych bob amser wedi cytuno â’r Athro Longley, oherwydd nid yw’r Athro Longley yn sicr wedi cytuno bob amser â Llywodraeth Cymru. Felly, mae ei bortreadu fel gwas bach neu rywun a fyddai’n cydgynllwynio â ni yn warthus. Na, nid ydym yma i drafod ei enw da ond, yn yr un modd, ni allaf sefyll yn ôl. Sut rydym fyth yn mynd i gael pobl i wneud gwaith i ni? Rwy’n mynd at bobl i ofyn iddynt wneud gwaith o’r fath. Gwnaeth yr Athro Longley adolygiad o gynghorau iechyd cymuned i mi. Sut ydym yn mynd i gael pobl i wneud gwaith i ni os mai dyma yw’r canlyniad?

Angela Burns: Minister, thank you for your statement today. I listened to it most carefully, and I am glad that you acknowledged that our role here is to scrutinise you. I also understand and appreciate your defence of your position. However, this is my concern: in October last year, a string of e-mails appeared that very clearly showed the Welsh Government asking the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales for a letter

Angela Burns: Weinidog, diolch ichi am eich datganiad heddiw. Roeddwn yn gwrando arno’n ofalus iawn, ac rwyf yn falch eich bod yn cydnabod mai ein rôl yma yw craffu arnoch chi. Rwyf hefyd yn deall ac yn gwerthfawrogi eich amddiffyniad o’ch safbwynt. Fodd bynnag, dyma fy mhryder: ym mis Hydref y llynedd, ymddangosodd cyfres o negeseuon e-bost a oedd yn dangos Llywodraeth Cymru yn gofyn yn glir iawn i Gyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru am lythyr a oedd yn

'playing up…the positive advantages of restructuring.’

rhoi gwedd ffafriol... ar fanteision cadarnhaol ailstrwythuro.

This was in relation to university reconfiguration. Here we are today with another string of e-mails, including statements such as the ones that have been mentioned. The one I would particularly like to draw your attention to is an e-mail to Professor Longley, which states:

Roedd hyn mewn perthynas ag ailgyflunio prifysgolion. Rydym yma heddiw gyda cyfres arall o negeseuon e-bost, gan gynnwys datganiadau fel y rhai sydd wedi cael eu crybwyll. Yr un yr hoffwn dynnu eich sylw ato’n benodol yw e-bost at yr Athro Longley, sy’n dweud:

'I think there was a general feeling that the CfC needs to be more positive if possible I.e. describing a persuasive vision of how things could be better’.

Rwy’n credu bod teimlad cyffredinol bod angen i’r CfC fod yn fwy cadarnhaol os yn bosibl, hynny yw disgrifio gweledigaeth argyhoeddiadol o sut y gallai pethau fod yn well.

In the light of what happened last October and what is happening today, I have this uneasy feeling that we have a case where reports are made to fit the policy. So, I ask you for your opinion on that because, for my constituents in Pembrokeshire and for other people within the Hywel Dda health board region who are so very worried about what is going to happen in their area and who are fighting, whether it is right or wrong, for what they believe should be their health service, and this kind of thing does nothing to ensure trust in the Government, the health boards or, indeed, in any of us here. I think that that is a great shame.

Yng ngoleuni’r hyn a ddigwyddodd ym mis Hydref diwethaf a’r hyn sy’n digwydd heddiw, rwyf yn cael y teimlad anesmwyth bod gennym achos lle mae adroddiadau yn cael eu llunio i gyd-fynd â’r polisi. Felly, gofynnaf am eich barn ar hynny, ar ran fy etholwyr yn Sir Benfro ac ar ran pobl eraill o fewn rhanbarth bwrdd iechyd Hywel Dda, sy’n hynod bryderus am yr hyn sy’n mynd i ddigwydd yn eu hardal ac sy’n brwydro, pa un a yw’n gywir neu anghywir, dros yr hyn y maent yn credu y dylai eu gwasanaeth iechyd fod, ac nid yw’r math hwn o beth yn gwneud dim i sicrhau ymddiriedaeth yn y Llywodraeth, y byrddau iechyd nac, yn wir, unrhyw un ohonom yma. Credaf fod hynny’n drueni mawr.

Lesley Griffiths: I will reiterate: I, or my officials, did not have any influence on, or association with, the writing of this report. The only role my officials had was in responding to requests from Professor Longley to aid his research.

Lesley Griffiths: Dywedaf eto: ni chefais i, na’m swyddogion, unrhyw ddylanwad ar y broses o ysgrifennu’r adroddiad hwn nac unrhyw gysylltiad â hynny. Yr unig rôl oedd gan fy swyddogion oedd ymateb i geisiadau gan yr Athro Longley i gynorthwyo ei waith ymchwil.

Simon Thomas: Yesterday, Minister, I was present at a meeting of the Llanelli Town Council to discuss the proposals. The Member for Llanelli was also present and he relied heavily on Professor Longley’s report, indeed, brandishing it quite literally as justification for the changes happening in Wales. Minister, I put it to you that your credibility, his credibility and the Labour party’s credibility has been considerably undermined by the publication of these e-mails today. If you are genuine in your job in seeking change for medical purposes and for better services in the NHS in Wales, I put it to you that you have made your job more difficult here today, particularly in the statement you have made. The people of Wales, Llanelli and Mid and West Wales will feel today that they have been sold a pig in a poke regarding this report. It was not as thoroughly independent as you led us to believe; it was a report that had the fingerprints of Government all over it. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but a little more honesty in that regard would have helped us all to understand the position you are coming from. Minister, we never want to hear about downgrading. Is it not time you upgraded and let somebody else do this job?

Simon Thomas: Ddoe, Weinidog, roeddwn yn bresennol mewn cyfarfod o Gyngor Tref Llanelli i drafod y cynigion. Roedd yr Aelod dros Lanelli yn bresennol hefyd ac roedd yn dibynnu’n drwm ar adroddiad yr Athro Longley; yn wir, roedd yn ei chwifio o gwmpas yn llythrennol fel cyfiawnhad dros y newidiadau sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru. Weinidog, rwyf yn awgrymu bod eich hygrededd, ei hygrededd ef a hygrededd y blaid Lafur wedi cael ei danseilio yn sylweddol o ganlyniad i gyhoeddi’r negeseuon e-bost hyn heddiw. Os ydych yn ddiffuant yn eich tasg o geisio newid am resymau meddygol ac i gael gwasanaethau gwell yn y GIG yng Nghymru, awgrymaf eich bod wedi gwneud eich gwaith yn anos yma heddiw, yn enwedig yn y datganiad a wnaethoch. Bydd pobl Cymru, Llanelli a Chanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru yn teimlo heddiw eu bod wedi cael eu camarwain o ran yr adroddiad hwn. Nid oedd mor gwbl annibynnol ag y bu ichi ein harwain i gredu; roedd olion bysedd y Llywodraeth dros yr adroddiad i gyd. Nid yw hynny o reidrwydd yn beth drwg, ond byddai ychydig mwy o onestrwydd yn hynny o beth wedi ein helpu ni i gyd i ddeall eich safbwynt. Weinidog, nid ydym byth eisiau clywed am israddio. Onid yw’n bryd ichi uwchraddio a gadael i rywun arall wneud y swydd hon?

Lesley Griffiths: In answer to your question, I am very genuine about ensuring that we have safe, sustainable and high-quality services. The people of Wales will start to lose patience with us if we continue to have this political bickering. It is about time that it came to an end and we had a mature debate about it. I think that what Professor Longley wanted from his report was to have that mature debate, and I think that it is a great shame that this has happened.

Lesley Griffiths: I ateb eich cwestiwn, rwyf yn wirioneddol ddiffuant ynghylch sicrhau bod gennym wasanaethau diogel, cynaliadwy ac o safon uchel. Bydd pobl Cymru yn dechrau colli amynedd gyda ni os byddwn yn parhau â’r cecru gwleidyddol hwn. Mae’n hen bryd iddo ddod i ben a’n bod yn cael dadl aeddfed am y peth. Tybiaf mai’r hyn yr oedd yr Athro Longley am ei gael o’i adroddiad oedd y ddadl aeddfed honno, ac rwyf yn credu ei fod yn drueni mawr bod hyn wedi digwydd.

Mick Antoniw: Minister, I echo some of the comments that you have made. I have been in many environments—political and legal—and it is sometimes a trick of the trade to take a series of documents, to extract those points from the documents that you feel lead to a particular point and then to ignore the others. I read all the e-mails and I have put them together. It seems to me totally illogical that there should be any suggestion that the obtaining of information and data for the preparation of the report is anything untoward whatsoever. Professor Longley outlined very clearly in his e-mail of 26 January:

Mick Antoniw: Weinidog, rwyf yn adleisio rhai o’r sylwadau a wnaethoch. Bum mewn sawl amgylchedd—gwleidyddol a chyfreithiol—ac weithiau mae’n arfer cymryd cyfres o ddogfennau, tynnu’r pwyntiau hynny o’r dogfennau rydych yn teimlo sy’n arwain at bwynt penodol ac yna anwybyddu’r lleill. Rwyf wedi darllen yr holl negeseuon e-bost ac rwyf wedi eu rhoi at ei gilydd. Mae’n ymddangos i mi yn gwbl afresymegol y dylai fod unrhyw awgrym bod cael gwybodaeth a data ar gyfer y gwaith o baratoi’r adroddiad yn gyfystyr ag unrhyw beth gwael o gwbl. Amlinellodd yr Athro Longley yn glir iawn yn ei e-bost ar 26 Ionawr:

'They should summarise the key evidence, in an objective but accessible way, with a view to allowing the interested lay reader to draw their own conclusions’.

Dylent grynhoi’r dystiolaeth allweddol, mewn ffordd wrthrychol ond hygyrch, gyda’r bwriad o ganiatáu i’r darllenydd lleyg sydd â diddordeb lunio ei gasgliadau ei hun.

I believe that Professor Longley—who has been made a target, quite shamefully, by the leader of the opposition, and I suspect he well regret that at his leisure in due course—made it very clear in a statement that 'The Case for Change’ document is an entirely independent piece of work carried out by him in partnership with the Welsh NHS Confederation. Do you agree with that statement and does that reflect your interpretation of the production of that particular document?

Credaf fod yr Athro Longley—sydd wedi cael ei wneud yn darged, yn gwbl gywilyddus, gan arweinydd yr wrthblaid, ac rwyf yn amau ​​y bydd yn difaru hynny wrth ei bwysau ymhen amser—wedi dweud yn glir iawn mewn datganiad bod y ddogfen '’Yr Achos dros Newid’ yn ddarn o waith cwbl annibynnol a wnaed ganddo mewn partneriaeth â Chydffederasiwn GIG Cymru. A ydych yn cytuno â’r datganiad hwnnw ac a yw hynny’n adlewyrchu eich dehongliad o’r ffordd y cynhyrchwyd y ddogfen benodol honno?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I do. I mentioned previously that I think that Professor Longley went to great lengths in the report to point out weaknesses in the data. There are whole paragraphs pointing out there was not data on many issues and that research was not always conclusive. I think that he wanted people reading the report to be able to evaluate for themselves.

Lesley Griffiths: Ydw, rwyf yn cytuno. Soniais eisoes fy mod yn meddwl bod yr Athro Longley wedi mynd i drafferth mawr yn yr adroddiad i nodi gwendidau yn y data. Mae paragraffau cyfan yn nodi nad oedd data ar nifer o faterion ac nad oedd y gwaith ymchwil bob amser yn dod i gasgliad argyhoeddiadol. Rwyf yn meddwl ei fod am i bobl ddarllen yr adroddiad er mwyn gallu gwerthuso hynny drostynt eu hunain.

Antoinette Sandbach: Minister, you have not answered the question: did you know about the discussions between your officials and Professor Longley? You have claimed that the e-mails are taken out of context. They were released in response to a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Would you like to release the information that puts them in context?

Antoinette Sandbach: Weinidog, nid ydych wedi ateb y cwestiwn: a oeddech chi’n gwybod am y trafodaethau rhwng eich swyddogion a’r Athro Longley? Rydych wedi honni bod yr e-byst yn cael eu hystyried y tu allan i’w cyd-destun. Cawsant eu rhyddhau mewn ymateb i gais o dan Ddeddf Rhyddid Gwybodaeth 2000. A hoffech chi ryddhau'r wybodaeth sy'n eu rhoi yn eu cyd-destun?

3.00 p.m.

Lesley Griffiths: I am not quite sure of that question. I do not know of every e-mail that is exchanged between my officials.

Lesley Griffiths: Nid wyf yn gwbl sicr ynglŷn â’r cwestiwn hwn. Wn i ddim am bob neges e-bost a gaiff ei chyfnewid rhwng fy swyddogion.

Vaughan Gething: I am grateful for the statement that has been generated by the debate that we have had. However, the question that I want to get to is not so much about the interaction between Professor Longley and members of the Welsh Government, but about the status and value of the report. I am especially interested in whether any of this debate affects the validity or accuracy of the statistics and health outcomes in Marcus Longley’s report, which are the basis of the argument made. In particular, on page 9, there are stark variations in outcomes in the risk-adjusted mortality index between different health boards in Wales, which should concern all of us as Members when we look at the current NHS in Wales and its future. Professor Longley neatly encapsulates our debate around locality, access and quality when he says that

Vaughan Gething: Rwy’n ddiolchgar am y datganiad a ysgogwyd gan y ddadl yr ydym wedi’i chael. Fodd bynnag, nid y berthynas rhwng yr Athro Longley ac aelodau o Lywodraeth Cymru yw’r mater yr wyf am ei drafod, yn gymaint â statws a gwerth yr adroddiad. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb arbennig mewn gwybod a yw unrhyw ran o’r ddadl hon yn effeithio ar ddilysrwydd neu gywirdeb yr ystadegau a’r canlyniadau iechyd yn adroddiad Marcus Longley, sef sail y ddadl a gyflwynwyd. Yn benodol, ar dudalen 9, mae amrywiadau amlwg yn y canlyniadau yn y mynegai marwolaethau a addaswyd o ran risg, rhwng byrddau iechyd gwahanol yng Nghymru, a ddylai fod yn achos pryder i bob un ohonom fel Aelodau pan ystyriwn y GIG yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, a’i ddyfodol. Mae’r Athro Longley yn crynhoi ein dadl yn daclus ynghylch lleoliad, mynediad ac ansawdd pan ddywed  

'immediate access to poor care is of little use to anyone.’

'dydy mynediad syth i ofal gwael ddim o werth i neb’.

 

Can you confirm, Minister, that the factual data in this report about health outcomes and variations between health boards in Wales and between the NHS in Wales and in England are accurate?

A allwch gadarnhau, Weinidog, fod y data ffeithiol yn yr adroddiad hwn am ganlyniadau iechyd ac amrywiadau rhwng byrddau iechyd yng Nghymru, a rhwng y GIG yng Nghymru ac yn Lloegr, yn gywir?

Lesley Griffiths: Yes, I understand that the evidence and the data are accurate. The report is entirely consistent with other reports that we have seen, if you think about the King’s Fund or go back to Wanless in 2003. It is not a biased line that has been invented to suit me or the Welsh Government. I do not think that the conclusions go beyond what the evidence supports and if we had not put the evidence in, it would have produced an unbalanced report. All that evidence from the Welsh Government and other places had to be put in, having been collected and evaluated, to ensure that we had that balanced report, which supports what we all in the Chamber know, namely that services have to change.

Lesley Griffiths: Gallaf, rwy’n deall bod y dystiolaeth a’r data yn gywir. Mae’r adroddiad yn gwbl gyson ag adroddiadau eraill yr ydym wedi eu gweld, os meddyliwch am y King’s Fund neu os ystyriwch Wanless yn 2003. Nid yw’n safbwynt unochrog sydd wedi’i ddyfeisio i fod yn addas i mi nac i Lywodraeth Cymru. Ni chredaf fod y casgliadau yn mynd y tu hwnt i’r hyn y mae’r dystiolaeth yn ei chefnogi a phe na baem wedi cyflwyno’r dystiolaeth, byddai wedi arwain at lunio adroddiad anghytbwys. Roedd yn rhaid cynnwys yr holl dystiolaeth a gafwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru a mannau eraill, ar ôl ei chasglu a’i gwerthuso, sicrhau bod gennym yr adroddiad cytbwys, i gefnogi’r hyn y mae pawb yn y Siambr yn ei wybod, sef bod yn rhaid i wasanaethau newid.

The Presiding Officer: I have two more speakers; I want them to be very brief, please, because you have already had this opportunity and one earlier this afternoon.

Y Llywydd: Mae gennyf ddau siaradwr arall; rwyf am iddynt fod yn gryno iawn, os gwelwch yn dda, gan eich bod eisoes wedi cael y cyfle hwn, yn ogystal â chyfle yn gynharach y prynhawn yma.

 

Janet Finch-Saunders: Minister, is it not the case that this report is masquerading as an independent report but has relied on being spoon-fed data and support from your Welsh Government officials? We know that the author of 'The Case for Change’ asked your officials on 22 February this year for evidence

Janet Finch-Saunders: Weinidog, onid y gwir yw bod yr adroddiad hwn yn ffugio bod yn adroddiad annibynnol, ond, yn hytrach, yn dibynnu ar roi data a chefnogaeth gan swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru ar lwy iddo? Gwyddom fod awdur 'Yr Achos dros Newid’ wedi gofyn i’ch swyddogion am dystiolaeth ar 22 Chwefror eleni

 

'to sharpen up the document and its impact in supporting the case for change’.

i roi min ar y ddogfen a’i heffaith er mwyn cefnogi’r achos dros newid.

I mention the comments of my colleague Angela Burns; you did not answer her question. We also know that your officials suggested on 4 March that the case for change

Hoffwn sôn am y sylwadau gan fy nghyd-Aelod Angela Burns; ni wnaethoch ateb ei chwestiwn. Gwyddom ninnau hefyd fod eich swyddogion wedi awgrymu ar 4 Mawrth fod angen i’r achos dros newid

'needs to be more positive if possible’,

fod yn fwy cadarnhaol os yn bosibl,

describing a more 'persuasive’ vision of how things could be better.

gan ddisgrifio gweledigaeth ar gyfer perswadio mwy ynghylch sut y gallai pethau fod yn well.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Can you come to questions, please?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. A allwch ofyn eich cwestiynau nawr, os gwelwch yn dda?

Janet Finch-Saunders: Yes, I am doing.

Janet Finch-Saunders: Ydw, rwy’n gwneud hynny.

The Presiding Officer: I am sorry, I know that you said that you are doing, but can you move to questions now, please?

Y Llywydd: Mae’n ddrwg gennyf, gwn eich bod yn dweud eich bod yn gwneud hynny, ond a allwch ofyn eich cwestiynau yn awr, os gwelwch yn dda?

Janet Finch-Saunders: Over the past 12 months, you have said numerous times in the Chamber that any service review would be based purely on clinically led decisions and evidence, but, given what we have learned today, how can you defend this report as being independent and, in real terms, a clinically led assessment?

Janet Finch-Saunders: Dros y 12 mis diwethaf, dywedasoch lawer gwaith yn y Siambr y byddai unrhyw adolygiad o wasanaethau yn seiliedig ar benderfyniadau dan arweiniad clinigol a thystiolaeth yn unig, ond, o ystyried yr hyn a glywsom heddiw, sut y mae modd i chi amddiffyn yr adroddiad hwn fel adroddiad annibynnol ac, mewn termau real, fel asesiad dan arweiniad clinigol?

 

Lesley Griffiths: I can absolutely defend the report. It is entirely independent, it was commissioned by the NHS and it was written by a respected academic. We know that services have to change. Clinicians are telling us that services have to change. Changes will be made based on clinical decisions.

Lesley Griffiths: Gallaf amddiffyn yr adroddiad yn llwyr. Mae’n gwbl annibynnol, oherwydd fe’i comisiynwyd gan y GIG ac fe’i hysgrifennwyd gan ysgolhaig uchel ei barch. Gwyddom fod yn rhaid i wasanaethau newid. Dywed clinigwyr wrthym fod yn rhaid i wasanaethau newid. Gwneir newidiadau ar sail penderfyniadau clinigol.

Mark Isherwood: Six years ago, Community Hospitals Acting Nationally Together Cymru was formed by campaigners across Wales fighting to retain their local hospitals after almost identical reconfiguration proposals. Do you, therefore, agree that, contrary to experience then, it would be unacceptable were the Welsh Government to dictate policy from the centre and leave the health boards to take the blame?  How do you respond to concerns from the Flintshire over-50s action group that wards and minor injuries units were closed last winter due to winter pressures, but, in fact, it was a mild winter with no evidence of infection outbreaks and neighbouring hospitals in England did not close a single bed? How do you respond to concern expressed in a letter to your department by the professor of psychiatry and other senior staff at the Hergest unit in north Wales that, against a shifting culture in healthcare, nowhere more clearly so than in mental health care, there is a risk that the process will become the outcome—

Mark Isherwood: Chwe blynedd yn ôl, ffurfiwyd Ysbytai Cymunedol yn Gweithredu’n Genedlaethol Gyda’i Gilydd Cymru, gan ymgyrchwyr ledled Cymru oedd yn brwydro i gadw eu hysbytai lleol yn dilyn cynigion unfath bron, i ad-drefnu. A ydych, felly, yn cytuno, yn groes i’r hyn a brofwyd, y byddai’n annerbyniol pe bai Llywodraeth Cymru yn pennu polisi o’r canol ac yn gadael i’r byrddau iechyd gymryd y bai?  Sut ydych chi’n ymateb i bryderon grŵp gweithredu dros 50 oed Sir y Fflint, bod wardiau ac unedau mân anafiadau wedi cau y gaeaf diwethaf oherwydd pwysau gaeaf, ond, mewn gwirionedd, roedd yn aeaf mwyn, ac nid oedd unrhyw dystiolaeth o achosion o haint, ac ni chaeodd ysbytai cyfagos yn Lloegr yr un gwely? Sut ydych chi’n ymateb i bryder a fynegwyd mewn llythyr at eich adran gan athro seiciatreg ac uwch staff eraill yn uned Hergest yn y Gogledd, mewn cefndir o newid diwylliant ym maes gofal iechyd, ac ym maes gofal iechyd meddwl yn bennaf oll, bod perygl y daw’r broses yn ganlyniad—

The Presiding Officer: Order. Can we stick to the report, please?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Gawn ni gadw at yr adroddiad, os gwelwch yn dda?

Mark Isherwood: I have one final question.

Mark Isherwood: Mae gennyf un cwestiwn olaf.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Stick to the report and you can ask whatever question you want to ask. You seem to be wandering off from the report. Stick to the report, please.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Cadwch at yr adroddiad a gallwch ofyn pa gwestiwn bynnag sydd gennych. Ymddengys eich bod yn crwydro ar drywydd gwahanol i’r adroddiad. Cadwch at yr adroddiad, os gwelwch yn dda.

 

Mark Isherwood: To the report itself?

Mark Isherwood: Yr adroddiad ei hun?

The Presiding Officer: Yes.

Y Llywydd: Ie

Mark Isherwood: This is a statement on the reconfiguration of health services and the evidence underlying it.

Mark Isherwood: Mae hwn yn ddatganiad ar ad-drefnu gwasanaethau iechyd a’r dystiolaeth sy’n sail iddo.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Could you ask your questions on the statement that has been given?

Y Llywydd: Trefn.  A allwch ofyn eich cwestiynau ar y datganiad a roddwyd?

Mark Isherwood: This relates to the evidence underlying the reconfiguration of health services.

Mark Isherwood: Mae hyn yn ymwneud â’r dystiolaeth sy’n sail i ad-drefnu gwasanaethau iechyd.

The Presiding Officer: Order. Could you just ask your question?

Y Llywydd: Trefn. A allwch ofyn eich cwestiwn?

Mark Isherwood: My final question is: how do explain the concerns expressed by a Labour councillor in Flint, that cuts in central funding will have serious ramifications for patients, and that people should not be under any illusions that services are going to be maintained?

Mark Isherwood: Fy nghwestiwn olaf yw: sut y mae ateb y pryderon a fynegwyd gan gynghorydd Llafur yn y Fflint, bod toriadau yn yr arian canolog yn effeithio’n ddifrifol ar gleifion, ac na ddylai pobl fod o dan unrhyw argraff bod modd cynnal gwasanaethau?

 

Lesley Griffiths: I will just reiterate the fact that this report confirms what we know—that services cannot remain as they are. We cannot wrap services up in aspic, as the Conservatives would want us to do. We cannot have every service provided in every hospital. We know that we have problems with medical recruitment. We know that, due to the horrendous cuts that we have had from the Member’s Government in London, the money is not available. This report supports that.

Lesley Griffiths: Rwyf am ailadrodd y ffaith bod yr adroddiad yn cadarnhau’r hyn a wyddom—na all gwasanaethau aros fel y maent. Ni allwn gadw gwasanaethau yn hollol ddigyfnewid, fel y byddai’r Ceidwadwyr am i ni ei wneud. Ni allwn gael pob gwasanaeth ym mhob ysbyty. Gwyddom fod gennym broblemau recriwtio i’r maes meddygol. Gwyddom, oherwydd y toriadau erchyll a gawsom gan Lywodraeth yr Aelod yn Llundain, nad yw’r arian ar gael. Mae’r adroddiad hwn yn cefnogi hynny.

 

The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Minister.

Y Llywydd: Diolch, Weinidog.

Datganiad: Cyflwyno Bil Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru)
Statement: Introduction of the Public Audit (Wales) Bill

The Record

The Minister for Finance and Leader of the House (Jane Hutt): Yesterday, I introduced the Public Audit (Wales) Bill, by laying it, together with an explanatory memorandum, before the National Assembly for Wales. I also issued a written statement setting out the key principles of the Bill, and I am pleased, in making this legislative statement today, to commence the Assembly’s formal scrutiny of this important Bill.

Y Gweinidog Cyllid ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Jane Hutt): Ddoe, cyflwynais Fil Archwilio Cyhoeddus (Cymru), gan ei osod, ynghyd â memorandwm esboniadol, gerbron Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Hefyd cyhoeddais ddatganiad ysgrifenedig oedd yn nodi egwyddorion cyffredinol y Bil, ac rwy’n falch o gyflwyno’r datganiad deddfwriaethol hwn heddiw, er mwyn dechrau ar y broses o graffu’n ffurfiol ar y Bil pwysig hwn gan y Cynulliad.

 

The Bill fulfils a commitment made by the First Minister in his legislative statement in July last year to consider strengthening and improving the governance, accountability and oversight arrangements relating to the Auditor General for Wales. That commitment stemmed from the professional behaviour and practice of a former auditor general. The absence of clear governance and accountability was a significant contributory factor in allowing the then auditor general to override his office’s control systems. The resultant reputational damage caused by those activities to an important public office was considerable.

Mae’r Bil yn cyflawni ymrwymiad a wnaed gan y Prif Weinidog yn ei ddatganiad deddfwriaethol ym mis Gorffennaf y llynedd, i ystyried cryfhau a gwella’r trefniadau llywodraethu, atebolrwydd a threfniadau goruchwylio mewn cysylltiad ag Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru. Roedd yr ymrwymiad hwnnw’n deillio o ymddygiad ac arferion proffesiynol archwilydd cyffredinol blaenorol. Roedd diffyg trefniadau llywodraethu ac atebolrwydd eglur yn ffactor cyfrannol sylweddol a oedd wedi caniatáu i’r archwilydd cyffredinol hwnnw ddiystyru systemau rheoli ei swyddfa. Achoswyd niwed sylweddol i enw da swydd gyhoeddus bwysig, o ganlyniad i’r gweithgareddau hynny.

I consulted on our commitment and the proposals for achieving it earlier this year. The consultation paper was extensive and invited a response on measures to improve the governance and accountability of the auditor general and his or her office. However, paramount in any consideration was the need to protect the auditor general’s independence and status in relation to audit matters. The paper also included proposals to consolidate, simplify and modify existing legislation applicable to the auditor general’s financial audit, value for money and other audit-related functions. It also asked whether the auditor general should have an express duty, in this Bill or later legislation, to carry out sustainable development examinations. I am pleased to say that there was widespread positive support for strengthening the governance and accountability arrangements. However, views varied as to how that could—and should—be achieved.    

Ymgynghorais ynghylch ein hymrwymiad a’r cynigion ar gyfer ei gyflawni yn gynharach eleni. Mae’r papur ymgynghori yn helaeth ac roedd yn gwahodd ymateb ar gamau i wella trefniadau llywodraethu ac atebolrwydd yr archwilydd cyffredinol a’i swyddfa. Fodd bynnag, roedd yr angen i warchod annibyniaeth a statws yr archwilydd cyffredinol mewn perthynas â materion archwilio yn hollbwysig mewn unrhyw ystyriaeth.  Roedd y papur hefyd yn cynnwys cynigion i gydgrynhoi, symleiddio ac addasu’r ddeddfwriaeth bresennol sy’n berthnasol i archwiliad ariannol, gwerth am arian a swyddogaethau archwilio eraill sy’n gysylltiedig â’r archwilydd cyffredinol. Roedd hefyd yn gofyn a ddylai’r archwilydd cyffredinol gael dyletswydd benodol, yn y Bil hwn neu mewn deddfwriaeth ddiweddarach, i gynnal archwiliadau datblygu cynaliadwy. Rwy’n falch o nodi bod cefnogaeth gadarnhaol eang i gryfhau trefniadau llywodraethu ac atebolrwydd. Fodd bynnag, roedd gwahaniaeth barn o ran sut y gellid, neu y dylid, cyflawni hyn.   

 

The responses on the proposals to consolidate, simplify and modify the existing legislation were supportive of our intentions. Nonetheless, our proposals raised a number of competence matters that have to be resolved with the Wales Office and other UK Government departments. Our main aim has always been to address the concerns about governance, accountability and oversight, and in order to prevent any delay in achieving that aim, the Bill has undergone some restructuring to focus mainly on those matters. The substantial consolidation and simplification processes and provisions will be returned to once this Bill has been fully considered by the Assembly.

Roedd yr ymatebion i’r cynigion i gydgrynhoi, symleiddio ac addasu’r    ddeddfwriaeth bresennol yn gefnogol i’n bwriad. Serch hynny, mae ein cynigion yn codi nifer o faterion cymhwysedd y mae’n rhaid eu datrys gyda Swyddfa Cymru ac adrannau eraill o Lywodraeth y DU. Ein prif nod erioed fu mynd i’r afael â’r pryderon ynghylch trefniadau llywodraethu, atebolrwydd a goruchwyliaeth, ac er mwyn osgoi unrhyw oedi wrth gyflawni’r nod hwn, ailstrwythurwyd rhywfaint ar y Bil er mwyn canolbwyntio ar y materion hynny’n bennaf. Byddwn yn ystyried y cydgrynhoi sylweddol, y prosesau symleiddio a’r darpariaethau eto, unwaith y caiff y Bil ei ystyried yn llawn gan y Cynulliad.

 

The consultation was valuable and informative. My consideration of the consultation responses, and my subsequent follow-up engagement with the Presiding Officer and the Public Accounts Committee, has led to some changes and a much shorter Bill. The principal changes are as follows. The appointment to the office of the Auditor General for Wales is to be for a maximum single term of eight years, not seven. There is a new provision—how the Auditor General for Wales’s functions are to be exercised—that makes it clear that the AGW has complete discretion in the manner in which he or she exercises audit-related functions, subject to certain conditions being met. For example, this includes having regard to the standards and principles of professional practice in relation to auditing and accounting. The provision dealing with resources for the auditor general now omits the duty on him or her to make requests for resources from the Wales Audit Office, which means that the WAO must provide resources for the AGW’s functions, as required by the AGW.

Roedd yr ymgynghoriad yn werthfawr a darparodd wybodaeth ddefnyddiol. Roedd fy ystyriaeth o’r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad, a fy nghyfarfod dilynol â’r Llywydd a’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus, wedi arwain at rai newidiadau a Bil llawer byrrach. Mae’r prif newidiadau fel a ganlyn. Mae’r penodiad i swydd Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru am gyfnod heb fod yn hwy nag wyth mlynedd, nid saith mlynedd. Mae darpariaeth newydd, sef sut y bydd swyddogaethau Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru yn cael eu harfer, a fydd yn sicrhau y bydd gan Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru ddisgresiwn llwyr yn y modd y mae’n arfer ei swyddogaethau sy’n gysylltiedig ag archwilio, yn amodol ar fodloni rhai amodau penodol. Er enghraifft, mae hyn yn cynnwys ystyried saf