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Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mawrth, 29 Ebrill 2008
Tuesday, 29 April 2008

Cynnwys
Contents

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog
Questions to the First Minister

Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes
Business Statement and Announcement

Dadl Cyfnod 1 ar y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 23.24
Stage 1 Standing Order No. 23.24 Debate on the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, at Ddibenion unrhyw ddarpariaethau sy’n deillio o Fesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) 2008, yn Cytuno i unrhyw Gynnydd mewn Gwariant o’r Math y Cyfeirir ato yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.80 (ii)(c) sy’n Codi o Ganlyniad iddynt
Motion to Propose that the National Assembly for Wales, for the Purposes of any Provisions Resulting from the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, Agrees to any Increase in Expenditure of a Kind referred to in Standing Order No. 23.80(ii)(c) Arising in Consequence Thereof

Dinasyddion yn Llywodraethu
Citizen Governance

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr. Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.
In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been included.

Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 2 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 2 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Cofnod

Y Llywydd: Galwaf y Cynulliad i drefn.

The Presiding Officer: I call the Assembly to order.

Cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog
Questions to the First Minister

Y Cofnod

Science Policy

Polisi Gwyddoniaeth

Q1 Jenny Randerson: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Welsh Assembly Government’s science policy? OAQ(3)0941(FM)

C1 Jenny Randerson: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am bolisi gwyddoniaeth Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru? OAQ(3)0941(FM)

The First Minister (Rhodri Morgan): The overarching science policy that I announced 18 months ago guides detailed development in different aspects of our ambitions for science in Wales. We have a number of exciting and encouraging projects coming through in health, including the £15 million PET scanner that is now under construction in Cardiff, and the £50 million Institute of Life Science in Swansea.

Y Prif Weinidog (Rhodri Morgan): Mae’r polisi gwyddoniaeth cyffredinol a gyhoeddwyd gennyf 18 mis yn ôl yn rhoi canllawiau ar ddatblygu manwl mewn gwahanol agweddau ar ein huchelgais ar gyfer gwyddoniaeth yng Nghymru. Mae gennym lawer o brosiectau cyffrous a chalonogol ar y gweill ym maes iechyd, gan gynnwys y sganiwr PET gwerth £15 miliwn sydd wrthi’n cael ei adeiladu yng Nghaerdydd, a’r Athrofa Gwyddor Bywyd gwerth £50 miliwn yn Abertawe.

Jenny Randerson: Good science policy includes an element of encouraging and facilitating research in all sectors. I wrote to you recently asking you to visit a private sector research company supported by universities, Lifeforce Immune System Bank plc in Newport, explaining in detail that its research has major applications in the treatment of HIV/AIDS and cancer. In your reply, you stated that you had already refused an invitation to visit the company and that it is a private provider of storage facilities for blood products. That is a misrepresentation and considerable underestimate of the work of the company, and I fear that it reveals that you or your staff did not read the briefing that I sent you. More worryingly, it betrays a negative approach towards the private sector and scientific research, which is certainly not good for science policy in Wales. Is that how we should interpret the 'One Wales’ commitment to exclude the private sector from health services in Wales? If that is not the case, will you have second thoughts about your refusal to visit the company?

Jenny Randerson: Mae polisi gwyddoniaeth da yn cynnwys elfen o annog a hwyluso ymchwil ymhob sector. Ysgrifennais atoch yn ddiweddar yn gofyn ichi ymweld â chwmni ymchwil yn y sector preifat a gefnogir gan brifysgolion, Lifeforce Immune System Bank ccc yng Nghasnewydd, gan esbonio’n fanwl fod ei ymchwil o bwys mawr mewn nifer o ffyrdd o ran trin HIV/AIDS a chanser. Yn eich ateb, dywedasoch eich bod eisoes wedi gwrthod gwahoddiad i ymweld â'r cwmni, ac mai darparwr cyfleusterau storio preifat ar gyfer cynhyrchion gwaed ydyw. Mae hynny’n cam-gyfleu gwaith y cwmni ac yn ei danbrisio’n sylweddol, ac mae arnaf ofn ei fod yn datgelu na ddarllenasoch chi na’ch staff y wybodaeth a anfonais atoch. Yr hyn sy’n peri mwy byth o bryder yw ei fod yn datgelu agwedd negyddol at y sector preifat ac ymchwil wyddonol, ac yn sicr nid yw hynny’n beth da i bolisi gwyddoniaeth yng Nghymru. Ai dyna sut y dylem ddehongli ymrwymiad 'Cymru’n Un’ i gau’r sector preifat allan o wasanaethau iechyd yng Nghymru? Os nad yw hynny’n wir, a feddyliwch eto ynghylch eich penderfyniad i wrthod ymweld â’r cwmni?

The First Minister: The companies that I do or do not visit are a matter for me and my office and my diary. When I originally visited that company, it was under different ownership and had a different set of objectives, and I was very impressed by it. However, I understand that, subsequent to its being taken over, it has narrowed its focus and is not now primarily engaged in science, but offers people the opportunity to store their white blood cells so that they can be used to treat them at a later date, should that be required. That is my understanding. If you want to take the matter further, or get the company to write to me, if my understanding is not correct, I will be pleased to read your or its letter.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mater i mi, i’m swyddfa ac i’m dyddiadur yw pa gwmnïau yr af i ymweld â nhw ai peidio. Pan ymwelais â’r cwmni hwnnw’n wreiddiol, yr oedd y perchennog yn wahanol ac yr oedd ganddo amcanion gwahanol, a chafodd gryn argraff arnaf. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn cael ar ddeall bod y cwmni, yn sgîl cael ei brynu, wedi cyfyngu ei ffocws ac nid yw bellach yn ymwneud yn bennaf â gwyddoniaeth, ond yn cynnig y cyfle i bobl storio eu celloedd gwaed gwyn er mwyn gallu eu defnyddio i’w trin yn y dyfodol, petai hynny’n angenrheidiol. Dyna yr wyf yn ei ddeall. Os ydych am fynd â'r mater ymhellach neu am ofyn i'r cwmni ysgrifennu ataf, os nad wyf yn deall yn iawn, byddaf yn falch o ddarllen eich llythyr, neu eu llythyr hwy.

Alun Cairns: The former Economic Development Committee made recommendations in relation to science policy, some of which have been taken up by the Welsh Assembly Government. However, the primary recommendation was to have a chief scientific officer for Wales. You initially rejected that recommendation. The Royal Society of Chemistry then submitted a petition to the Assembly calling for a chief scientific officer, only to find that a civil servant’s job description or title had been changed for him to become the 'chief scientist’. Are you not just playing with words here, First Minister? Is it not really the case that what the committee and the Royal Society of Chemistry wanted was someone of the calibre of Sir David King, the UK chief scientific adviser? You are simply changing a title so that you can claim to have satisfied the objective, but there is little policy behind it.

Alun Cairns: Gwnaeth y cyn Bwyllgor Datblygu Economaidd argymhellion yng nghyswllt polisi gwyddoniaeth, ac mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ymgymryd â rhai ohonynt. Fodd bynnag, yr argymhelliad sylfaenol oedd y dylid cael prif swyddog gwyddonol i Gymru. Gwrthodwyd yr argymhelliad hwnnw gennych i ddechrau. Cyflwynodd Cymdeithas Frenhinol Cemeg ddeiseb i’r Cynulliad yn galw am brif swyddog gwyddonol, ond dywedwyd wrthynt fod swydd-ddisgrifiad neu deitl swydd gwas sifil wedi'i newid er mwyn iddo fod yn 'brif wyddonydd’. Onid chwarae â geiriau yr ydych, Brif Weinidog? Onid yw’n wir mewn gwirionedd mai’r hyn yr oedd ar Gymdeithas Frenhinol Cemeg ei eisiau oedd rhywun o’r un safon â Syr David King, prif gynghorydd gwyddonol y DU? Y cyfan yr ydych yn ei wneud yw newid teitl swydd er mwyn ichi allu honni eich bod wedi bodloni’r amcan, ond ychydig o bolisi sydd y tu ôl i hyn.

The First Minister: That is a farrago of complete misunderstanding of what happened. Professor Chris Pollock’s appointment as a pathfinder chief scientific adviser to me and the Assembly Government was not the redesignation of a civil service post. Professor Pollock was not previously a civil servant, and was a new acquisition to the Assembly Government’s consultant staff. He works for me part time, and will report in the autumn on whether we need a fully fledged chief scientific adviser. Should you consider that Professor Chris Pollock is not of sufficient scientific stature to meet your objectives, Alun, then that is a matter for you to take up with him—I wonder how much notice he will take of your views on the relative merits of various senior scientists. I was looking for someone who had a major reputation in the field of science, and who also knew the corridors of power. He was the best person in Wales to do that job, because he knew the corridors of power and he is a scientist of immense worldwide esteem.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae hynny’n ddryswch ac yn gamddealltwriaeth lwyr o’r hyn a ddigwyddodd. Nid ailddynodi swydd yn y gwasanaeth sifil oedd penodiad yr Athro Chris Pollock yn gynghorydd gwyddonol arloesol i mi ac i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Nid oedd yr Athro Pollock yn was sifil cyn hynny, ac yr oedd yn aelod newydd o staff ymgynghorol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Mae'n gweithio i mi’n rhan-amser, a bydd yn adrodd yn yr hydref ynghylch a oes arnom angen prif gynghorydd gwyddonol cyflawn ai peidio. Petaech o'r farn nad yw'r Athro Chris Pollock yn wyddonydd o ddigon o safon i fodloni’ch amcanion, Alun, yna mae hynny'n fater ichi ei godi ag ef—tybed faint o sylw a rydd i’ch barn ynghylch rhinweddau cymharol gwahanol uwch wyddonwyr? Yr oeddwn yn chwilio am rywun yr oedd ganddo enw da iawn ym maes gwyddoniaeth, a rhywun a oedd hefyd yn gyfarwydd â choridorau grym. Ef oedd yr unigolyn gorau yng Nghymru i wneud y swydd honno, am ei fod yn gyfarwydd â choridorau grym ac yn wyddonydd uchel iawn ei barch ledled y byd.

    

Lesley Griffiths: In its document, 'A Science Policy for Wales 2006’, the Government clearly spelt out that higher education institutions would play a pivotal role in delivering science and innovation policy. The document also said that that should be linked to Wales’s wider economic success. Will you, therefore, join me in congratulating the North East Wales Institute of Higher Education in Wrexham—Wales’s latest university—on securing a £1.6 million research grant to work with industry to find an alternative, greener, biodegradable material for use in offshore oil and gas drilling operations? Does this not demonstrate perfectly how the Government’s science policy is delivering for Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: Yn ei dogfen, 'Polisi Gwyddoniaeth ar gyfer Cymru 2006’, datganodd y Llywodraeth yn glir y byddai gan sefydliadau addysg uwch ran ganolog i’w chwarae wrth wireddu polisïau gwyddoniaeth ac arloesedd. Dywedodd y ddogfen hefyd y dylid cysylltu hynny â llwyddiant economaidd ehangach Cymru. A wnewch, felly, ymuno â mi i longyfarch Athrofa Addysg Uwch Gogledd Ddwyrain Cymru yn Wrecsam—prifysgol ddiweddaraf Cymru—am sicrhau grant ymchwil gwerth £1.6 miliwn i weithio gyda diwydiant i ddod o hyd i ddeunydd amgen sy’n fwy gwyrdd ac yn fioddiraddiadwy i’w ddefnyddio wrth ddrilio am olew a nwy ar y môr? Onid yw hyn yn dangos yn berffaith sut y mae polisi gwyddoniaeth y Llywodraeth yn cyflawni ar gyfer Cymru?

The First Minister: We specified three top priority areas in which we, and our higher education institutions, should do more and more work. One of those was the low-carbon society and economy. The kind of research grant that you mentioned in NEWI would fit in with those priorities. I welcome the announcement of that grant, which is quite substantial by NEWI standards. Now that it has university-level ranking, we hope that its research income, and its ability to win research contracts, will grow and grow.

Y Prif Weinidog: Enwyd tri phrif faes blaenoriaeth y dylem ni, a’n sefydliadau addysg uwch, wneud mwyfwy o waith ynddynt. Un o’r rheini oedd y gymdeithas a'r economi isel o ran carbon. Byddai’r math o grant ymchwil y soniasoch amdano yn NEWI yn cyd-fynd â’r blaenoriaethau hynny. Croesawaf gyhoeddi’r grant hwnnw, sy’n eithaf sylweddol yn ôl safonau NEWI. Gan ei bod wedi cyrraedd lefel prifysgol erbyn hyn, gobeithiwn y bydd ei hincwm ymchwil, a’i gallu i ennill contractau ymchwil, yn parhau i dyfu.

Gareth Jones: Yn yr adroddiad y cyfeiriodd Alun Cairns ato, argymhellwyd y dylai’r Llywodraeth adolygu’r broses o recriwtio, cadw a hyrwyddo datblygiad proffesiynol athrawon gwyddoniaeth. Gwrthodwyd hynny yn rhannol, gan fod teimlad ar y pryd bod pethau mewn llaw a dan reolaeth. Aeth bron i ddwy flynedd heibio ers i’r pwyllgor drafod y mater hwn. A allwch ein sicrhau bod polisi gwyddoniaeth Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un a’r gyfundrefn bresennol yn cyflenwi digon o athrawon cymwys i ddysgu’r gwyddorau unigol, fel cemeg a ffiseg, yn ein sefydliadau addysgol?

Gareth Jones: In the report that Alun Cairns referred to, it was recommended that the Government should review the process of recruiting, retaining and promoting the professional development of science teachers. That was partly rejected, because it was felt at the time that things were in hand and under control. Almost two years have gone by since the committee discussed this issue. Can you assure us that the One Wales Government’s science policy and the current system provide enough qualified teachers to teach individual sciences, such as chemistry and physics, in our educational establishments?  

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni allaf roi gwarant bod pob ysgol yn gallu llenwi pob bwlch mewn meysydd lle mae prinder cenedlaethol a phrinder ar draws cyfandiroedd gogledd y byd—America ac Ewrop—yn enwedig mewn ffiseg; nid yw pethau cynddrwg mewn cemeg, ac mae pethau’n ddrwg ambell waith mewn mathemateg. Yr hyn yr ydym yn gorfod ei wneud yw gwella’r ffordd mae bechgyn a merched yn dewis math o yrfa ac arbenigedd yn 14 oed, yn y celfyddydau, yn alwedigaethol neu ar yr ochr wyddonol. Er mwyn gwneud gwyddoniaeth a mathemateg yn fwy poblogaidd, mae’n rhaid symud pobl i ffwrdd o’r duedd o feddwl fod y gwyddorau a mathemateg yn rhy anodd iddynt.

The First Minister: I cannot give an assurance that every school can fill every gap when there is a shortage nationally and also across the northern continents of the world—in America and Europe—particularly in physics. Things are not so bad in chemistry, and things are sometimes bad in mathematics. What we have to do is to improve the way that boys and girls choose their career paths and specialised subjects at 14 years old, be it in the arts, vocationally or on the scientific side. In order to make science and mathematics more popular, people must be moved away from the tendency to assume that sciences and mathematics are too difficult for them.

Colli Swyddi

Job Losses

C2 Alun Ffred Jones: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am golli swyddi yn ardal Caernarfon? OAQ(3)0945(FM)

Q2 Alun Ffred Jones: Will the First Minister make a statement on job losses in the Caernarfon area? OAQ(3)0945(FM)

Y Prif Weinidog: Bu gostyngiad o 11 y cant yn nifer y bobl ar y dôl yng Ngwynedd rhwng mis Mawrth 2007 a mis Mawrth 2008, sef y gostyngiad mwyaf mewn canran yn y gogledd—dwywaith canran gyffredinol Cymru.

The First Minister: Gwynedd saw an 11 per cent reduction in the number of people out of work between March 2007 and March 2008, which was the biggest percentage reduction in north Wales—twice the Welsh average.

Alun Ffred Jones: Nid wyf am wrthddweud y ffeithiau hynny, ond, yn ddiweddar, collodd 50 o bobl eu swyddi yng ngwaith brics Caernarfon—Hanson Brick. Yr oedd y rhan fwyaf o’r gweithwyr hynny wedi gweithio yna am gyfnod hir iawn. Cefais gyfarfod â rheolwr gweithfeydd y cwmni, ac un o’i gwynion oedd nad oedd y cwmni wedi cael cefnogaeth gan fusnesau yn y gogledd, ac yng Nghymru yn gyffredinol, i gynnyrch gwaith brics Caernarfon. Beth mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod cynlluniau adeiladu cyhoeddus yn ceisio defnyddio cynnyrch o Gymru, er mwyn cefnogi’r economi a diogelu swyddi i’r dyfodol?

Alun Ffred Jones: I will not contradict those facts, but, recently, 50 people lost their jobs at the Caernarfon brickworks—Hanson Brick. Most of those workers had worked there for a very long time. I met the company’s works manager, and one of his complaints was that products from the Caernarfon brickworks had not been supported by businesses in the north, and in Wales in general. What is the Assembly Government doing to ensure that public construction schemes are using products from Wales, in order to support the economy and safeguard jobs for the future?

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd pob economi fodern yn gweld corddi fel yr hyn a ddisgrifiwyd gennych, lle bydd rhai cwmnïau ar eu hennill a rhai yn lleihau maint eu gweithluoedd neu’n cau yn gyfan gwbl, hyd yn oed. Yn anffodus, mae cwmni Hanson wedi penderfynu cau gwaith brics Caernarfon. Ar y llaw arall, mae DeepStream Technologies Cyf ym Mangor wedi dweud ei fod am dyfu yn sgîl archebion enfawr o’r Almaen. Mae technoleg y cwmni hwnnw yn rhywbeth y mae’r byd yn galw amdano.

The First Minister: All modern economies will see the kind of churn that you described, where some companies will gain and others will lay off some workers or even shut down completely. Unfortunately, Hanson has decided to close the Caernarfon brickworks. On the other hand, DeepStream Technologies Ltd in Bangor has said that it wishes to increase its workforce after securing huge contracts from Germany. Its technology is something that the world is crying out for.

O ran archebion y sector preifat, nid oes gennym unrhyw ddylanwad dros benderfyniadau cwmnïau sy’n adeiladu tai neu gyfleusterau eraill wrth brynu brics. Ond, mae’n anffodus os nad yw cwmnïau sy’n adeiladu tai yng Ngwynedd yn defnyddio brics Hanson. Yn ôl fy nealltwriaeth i, dyna sydd wedi achosi i’r cwmni benderfynu ei fod am ganolbwyntio ar y gwaith brics yn Wrecsam a chau’r gwaith yng Nghaernarfon. Nid oes gennym lawer o ddylanwad ar hynny. O ran y sector cyhoeddus, pan fo cwmni yn ennill tendr—er enghraifft, i adeiladu swyddfa newydd y Cynulliad yng Nghyffordd Llandudno—nid ydym yn gallu dweud ei fod yn gorfod defnyddio cynnyrch o Gymru. Gallwn ofyn i gwmnïau ystyried cwmnïau o Gymru wrth osod is-gontractau ac archebion, ond ni allwn eu gorfodi i ddefnyddio cynnyrch lleol.

With regard to private sector orders, we have no influence over where construction or related companies source their bricks from. However, it is unfortunate if housebuilders in Gwynedd are not using Hanson bricks. It is my understanding that that is what led to the company deciding to focus on the brickworks in Wrexham and to close the plant in Caernarfon. We do not have much influence over such an issue. In the public sector, when a company wins a tender—for example, to build the new Assembly offices at Llandudno Junction—we cannot stipulate that it must use Welsh products. We can ask companies to consider Welsh companies when letting its subcontracts and placing its orders, but we cannot force them to use local products.

2.10 p.m.

 

The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): I wish to begin with a gentle reminder that you promised me a detailed response to issues that I raised on 15 April in questions to you on fuel poverty and, last week, on bedblocking; I have not received either.

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): Hoffwn ddechrau drwy eich atgoffa’n garedig eich bod wedi addo anfon ateb manwl ataf i'r materion a godwyd gennyf ar 15 Ebrill mewn cwestiynau ichi ynghylch tlodi tanwydd, a’r wythnos diwethaf, ynghylch blocio gwelyau; nid wyf wedi cael yr un o’r ddau.

In relation to the state of the economy, the First Minister was honest enough to say, two weeks ago, that he was against the abolition of the 10p tax rate. I am sure that he recognises, as I do, that its withdrawal will have a negative effect on employment, because of the poverty trap. Has he had any discussions with colleagues in Westminster, particularly with Gordon Brown, about whether the compensation measures will be applied retrospectively? I am sure that the First Minister will acknowledge—indeed I have heard him say—that this is an issue that is coming up on doorsteps throughout Wales.

Yng nghyswllt cyflwr yr economi, yr oedd y Prif Weinidog yn ddigon gonest i ddweud, bythefnos yn ôl, ei fod yn erbyn diddymu’r gyfradd dreth 10c. Yr wyf yn siŵr ei fod, fel yr wyf finnau, yn cydnabod y bydd ei diddymu yn cael effaith negyddol ar gyflogaeth, oherwydd y fagl tlodi. A yw wedi cynnal unrhyw drafodaethau gyda’i gyd-Weinidogion yn San Steffan, yn enwedig gyda Gordon Brown, ynghylch a gaiff y mesurau iawndal eu gweithredu’n ôl-weithredol? Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn cydnabod—yn wir, fe'i clywais yn dweud—fod hwn yn fater sy'n codi wrth ymgyrchu ledled Cymru.

The First Minister: With regard to bedblocking, I think that new figures are coming out tomorrow. I cannot advance the date on which the monthly figures are published. On fuel poverty, I will check up on what has caused any delay, if there has been one, in responding to your letter. You are right that I disagree with the Government’s policy on the 10p tax rate, because it cuts across any sensible welfare-to-work policy; we are trying to encourage people to take jobs, even if the pay for them is not much above the minimum wage. That cuts across what the UK Government and we have been doing, extremely successfully, in encouraging people to move from welfare benefits into work. I have not had any discussions with Gordon Brown, but I have had discussions with the Secretary of State for Wales, and I am sure that he has passed on the detail of those in Cabinet discussions.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yng nghyswllt blocio gwelyau, credaf y caiff ffigurau newydd eu cyhoeddi yfory. Ni allaf symud dyddiad cyhoeddi ffigurau misol ymlaen. Ynghylch tlodi tanwydd, edrychaf i weld beth sydd wedi achosi unrhyw oedi, os bu oedi, o ran ateb eich llythyr. Yr ydych yn gywir fy mod yn anghytuno â pholisi’r Llywodraeth ynghylch y gyfradd dreth 10c, am ei fod yn torri ar draws unrhyw bolisi synhwyrol ynghylch symud o fudd-dal i waith; yr ydym yn ceisio annog pobl i gymryd swyddi, hyd yn oed os nad yw cyflog y swyddi yn llawer uwch na’r isafswm cyflog. Mae hynny’n torri ar draws yr hyn y mae Llywodraeth y DU a ninnau wedi bod yn ei wneud, yn llwyddiannus dros ben, o ran annog pobl i symud o fudd-dal i waith. Nid wyf wedi cael dim trafodaethau gyda Gordon Brown, ond yr wyf wedi cael trafodaethau gydag Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, ac yr wyf yn siŵr ei fod wedi trosglwyddo manylion y rheini yn nhrafodaethau'r Cabinet.

Nick Bourne: I am grateful for that response. On a point of clarification, the responses were not to letters; I raised both issues during First Minister’s questions. With regard to the 10p tax rate, I am grateful for the response, but I would push him further in relation to the doubt about whether the compensation measures will be applied retrospectively. Clearly, for those to be fully effective, people must be restored to the position that they would have been in if the 10p tax rate were not being withdrawn. It would have to be fully effective to the date when it was withdrawn, which, as I understand it, is this April. Given that he has been discussing these matters with regard to the position of the economy with the Secretary of State, has he also raised the issues of the impact on the Welsh economy of the rising prices of food, energy and petrol in particular, which are going to have an effect on competitiveness—not necessarily within the UK, but certainly with regard to our position vis-à-vis other countries around the world—and of what is likely to be the impact of those fairly massive price increases that are now feeding into the retail price index and the consumer price index?

Nick Bourne: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr ateb hwnnw. Er mwyn egluro un peth, nid ateb i lythyrau sydd dan sylw; codwyd y ddau fater gennyf yn ystod cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog. Yng nghyswllt y gyfradd dreth 10c, yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr ateb, ond byddwn yn ei wthio ymhellach ar fater yr amheuaeth ynghylch a gaiff y mesurau iawndal eu gweithredu’n ôlweithredol. Yn amlwg, er mwyn i’r rheini fod yn gwbl effeithiol, rhaid i bobl fynd yn ôl i’r sefyllfa y byddent wedi bod ynddi pe na bai’r gyfradd dreth 10c yn cael ei diddymu. Byddai’n rhaid i hynny fynd yn ôl i’r dyddiad pan gafodd y gyfradd ei diddymu, sef, yn ôl a ddeallaf, ym mis Ebrill eleni. O ystyried ei fod wedi bod yn trafod y materion hyn yng nghyswllt sefyllfa’r economi gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol, a yw hefyd wedi codi mater yr effaith ar economi Cymru oherwydd bod prisiau bwyd, ynni a phetrol yn arbennig, yn codi, sydd yn mynd i gael effaith ar gystadleurwydd—nid o fewn y DU o reidrwydd, ond yn sicr yng nghyswllt ein sefyllfa o ran gwledydd eraill ledled y byd—a mater effaith debygol y codiadau eithaf anferth hynny yn y prisiau sydd erbyn hyn yn bwydo i mewn i’r mynegai prisiau manwerthu a’r mynegai prisiau defnyddwyr?

The First Minister: I understand that there was a debate on the 10p tax rate recompense measures in the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill throughout yesterday and yesterday evening. I believe that the Treasury undertook to come back with more details on how to target the recompense measures for the group of people aged 60 to 64 and above, which is relatively simple. However, for the larger group of people aged 18 to 25 who have no children, earning above £12,000 and less than £18,000, it is far harder to find a method of targeting. That is what the Treasury is now looking for. When they come back at Report Stage, which I suppose will be in two or three weeks’ time, Jane Kennedy and Angela Eagle, the two relevant Treasury Ministers, are expected to provide further details to the House of Commons.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn cael ar ddeall bod dadl ynglŷn â'r mesurau i ad-dalu’r gyfradd dreth 10c yn ystod Cyfnod Pwyllgor y Mesur Cyllid drwy’r dydd ddoe a neithiwr. Credaf fod y Trysorlys wedi cytuno i ddychwelyd gyda rhagor o fanylion ynghylch sut i dargedu’r mesurau ad-dalu ar gyfer y grŵp o bobl sydd rhwng 60 a 64 oed ac yn hŷn, sy’n dasg weddol syml. Fodd bynnag, i’r grŵp mwy o bobl rhwng 18 a 25 oed nad oes ganddynt blant, sy’n ennill mwy na £12,000 a llai na £18,000, mae’n anos canfod dull o dargedu. Dyna sydd dan sylw gan y Trysorlys yn awr. Pan fyddant yn dychwelyd yn y Cyfnod Adrodd, a fydd, mae’n debyg, ymhen dwy neu dair wythnos, disgwylir i Jane Kennedy ac Angela Eagle, y ddau Weinidog perthnasol yn y Trysorlys, roi mwy o fanylion i Dŷ’r Cyffredin.

On the question of the stresses and strains on the Welsh economy as a whole resulting from higher fuel and food prices, you are right to point to the influences from all over the globe, which are impacting on industry everywhere. I am sure that you will have noticed, however, the incredibly optimistic survey that the Confederation of British Industry Wales’s manufacturers panel published on Wednesday last week indicating that the export prospects for manufacturers in Wales are the best that they have been for 30 years, since 1978, and showing that order intake over the past three months for domestic and export orders is the best for 13 years, since 1995.

Ynghylch y cwestiwn am y straen a'r pwysau ar economi Cymru yn gyfan gwbl, yn sgîl prisiau uwch am danwydd a bwyd, yr ydych yn gywir wrth enwi'r dylanwadau o bedwar ban byd, sy’n cael effaith ar ddiwydiant ym mhobman. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch wedi sylwi, fodd bynnag, ar yr arolwg optimistaidd dros ben a gyhoeddwyd ddydd Mercher diwethaf gan banel gweithgynhyrchwyr Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yng Nghymru, a oedd yn nodi bod rhagolygon allforio gweithgynhyrchwyr yng Nghymru ar eu gorau ers 30 mlynedd, ers 1978, ac yn dangos bod nifer yr archebion a gafwyd dros y tri mis diwethaf ar gyfer archebion domestig ac allforion yn fwy nag a gafwyd ers 13 mlynedd, ers 1995.

Nick Bourne: I think that you will find that the Federation of Small Businesses takes a different view of economic growth. Of course, it is in small businesses that economic growth is first generated. Also, what is your position on entrepreneurship and investment in the private sector? I was reading Peter Hain’s piece, written on 15 March, in which he said that the era of free handouts—he was certainly referring to some of the handouts that the Government has been making—is at an end, and that the money needs to be invested in the private sector, which he says is too small in Wales, in order to generate growth and to create jobs. Do you agree with that?

Nick Bourne: Credaf y gwelwch fod gan y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach farn wahanol ar dwf economaidd. Wrth gwrs, mewn busnesau bach y caiff twf economaidd ei gynhyrchu gyntaf. Hefyd, beth yw eich safbwynt ynghylch entrepreneuriaeth a buddsoddi yn y sector preifat? Yr oeddwn yn darllen erthygl Peter Hain, a ysgrifennwyd ar 15 Mawrth, lle’r oedd yn dweud bod oes rhoi pethau am ddim—yn sicr, yr oedd yn cyfeirio at rai o’r pethau y mae’r Llywodraeth wedi bod yn eu rhoi am ddim—ar ben, a bod angen buddsoddi’r arian yn y sector preifat, sy’n rhy fach yng Nghymru, yn ei ôl ef, er mwyn cynhyrchu twf a chreu swyddi. A gytunwch â hynny?

The First Minister: I notice that if I quote a survey by CBI Wales, and it is optimistic and indicates how the economy is being rebalanced because of the fall of sterling to a more realistic rate, and its expected impact on rising exports, which is why you have the best prospects for exports for 30 years, you decide, 'Never mind the CBI; it is of no importance’. You hope that the FSB will come out with a survey—although I have not seen one; perhaps you know of one and can tell us about it—which contradicts CBI Wales’s survey. I would rather go on the surveys that I have actually seen, and not on ones that I know nothing about.

Y Prif Weinidog: Sylwaf, os dyfynnaf arolwg gan CBI Cymru, a’i fod yn optimistaidd ac yn nodi sut y mae’r economi’n cael ei hailfantoli oherwydd cwymp sterling i gyfradd fwy realistig, ac effaith ddisgwyliedig hynny ar fwy o allforion, sef pam mae’r rhagolygon gorau ar gyfer allforion ers 30 mlynedd gennych, byddwch yn penderfynu, 'Wfft i’r CBI; nid yw’n bwysig’. Gobeithiwch y bydd y Ffederasiwn Busnesau Bach yn cyhoeddi arolwg—er nad wyf wedi gweld un; efallai eich bod yn gwybod am un ac y gallwch ddweud wrthym amdano—sy’n gwrth-ddweud arolwg CBI Cymru. Byddai’n well gennyf sôn am yr arolygon yr wyf wedi’u gweld, ac nid am rai nad wyf yn gwybod dim amdanynt.

Looking for comfort in discomfort seems not to be a sensible way forward for the leader of the opposition or his party. Searching for bad news is not a good idea. The Welsh economy will be rebalanced, as will the British economy, and it will involve closing the trade gap by manufacturing more and exporting more. The benefit of having lower sterling relative to the euro is now showing through. At the same time, the credit crunch is impacting heavily on other aspects of the economy, namely house building, consumer credit and the banking side of the economy. That is exactly the kind of rebalancing that the British economy needs.

Nid yw chwilio am gysur mewn anghysur yn ymddangos yn ffordd ddoeth ymlaen i arweinydd yr wrthblaid, nac i’w blaid. Nid yw chwilio am newyddion drwg yn syniad da. Caiff economi Cymru ei hailfantoli, yn yr un modd ag economi Prydain, a bydd hynny’n cau’r bwlch masnach drwy weithgynhyrchu mwy ac allforio mwy. Mae mantais cael sterling is o’i gymharu â’r ewro yn dod i’r amlwg yn awr. Ar yr un pryd, mae’r wasgfa gredyd yn cael effaith fawr ar agweddau eraill ar yr economi, sef adeiladu tai, credyd defnyddwyr ac ochr fancio’r economi. Dyna’r union fath o ailfantoli y mae ei angen ar economi Prydain.

Nick Bourne: I notice that you introduced the CBI’s comments as 'incredible’—I will leave that where it is. Also, I noticed that you talked about Peter Hain’s comments as being bad news. I simply asked whether you agreed with his comments, made only two months ago, that you need to invest more in the private sector and less in handouts. It is a straightforward question, but you did not answer it.

Nick Bourne: Sylwaf eich bod wedi cyflwyno sylwadau’r CBI fel 'anhygoel’—ni ddywedaf ddim mwy am hynny. Hefyd, sylwais ichi ddweud bod sylwadau Peter Hain yn newyddion drwg. Y cyfan a wneuthum oedd gofyn a oeddech yn cytuno â’i sylwadau, a wnaethpwyd ddeufis yn ôl, fod angen ichi fuddsoddi mwy yn y sector preifat a llai mewn rhoi pethau am ddim. Mae’n gwestiwn syml, ond ni wnaethoch ei ateb.

The First Minister: That is like asking, 'When did you stop hitting your wife?’. You say, 'The Secretary of State is criticising the Assembly Government’ and then ask whether I agree with him. If you are right in saying that he is criticising the Assembly Government—and I have no idea whether that was a criticism of the Assembly Government or not—then of course I do not agree with him. You are always searching for someone on the Labour side who may, according to Tory interpretation, be attacking the Assembly Government. Then you ask the Assembly Government, 'Do you agree with it?’. Of course I do not agree with criticism of the Assembly Government.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae hynny fel gofyn, 'Pryd y gwnaethoch roi’r gorau i guro eich gwraig?’. Dywedwch, 'Mae’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn beirniadu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad’ ac yna gofynnwch a wyf yn cytuno ag ef. Os ydych yn gywir wrth ddweud ei fod yn beirniadu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad—ac nid oes gennyf syniad ai beirniadaeth ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad oedd hynny ai peidio—yna wrth gwrs nid wyf yn cytuno ag ef. Yr ydych bob amser yn chwilio am rywun ar ochr Llafur a all fod, yn ôl dehongliad y Torïaid, yn ymosod ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Yna gofynnwch i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, 'A ydych yn cytuno ag ef?’. Wrth gwrs nad wyf yn cytuno â beirniadaeth ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad.

The Presiding Officer: Order. There have been seven comments made from a sedentary position by Alun Cairns in the last seven minutes. I will exercise my authority not to call a Member who repeats that kind of performance. I have said that many times.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Mae Alun Cairns wedi cyflwyno saith o sylwadau ar ei eistedd yn y saith munud diwethaf. Defnyddiaf fy awdurdod i beidio â galw ar Aelod sy’n ailadrodd y math hwnnw o ymddygiad. Yr wyf wedi dweud hynny droeon.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiwn 3, OAQ(3)0935(FM), yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Question 3, OAQ(3)0935(FM), has been withdrawn.

Road Safety Initiatives

Cynlluniau Diogelwch ar y Ffyrdd

Q4 Irene James: Will the First Minister make a statement on road safety initiatives in Islwyn? OAQ(3)0950(FM)

C4 Irene James: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am gynlluniau diogelwch ar y ffyrdd yn Islwyn? OAQ(3)0950(FM)

The First Minister: We provide the money, but it is up to Caerphilly County Borough Council to devise the individual road safety initiatives in Islwyn. Since 2000, we have provided that local authority with direct grant funding of about £2.8 million to help it to improve road safety.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ni sy’n darparu’r arian, ond cyfrifoldeb Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili yw dyfeisio’r mentrau unigol o ran diogelwch ar y ffyrdd yn Islwyn. Ers 2000, yr ydym wedi darparu tua £2.8 miliwn o gyllid grant uniongyrchol i’r awdurdod lleol hwnnw i’w helpu i wella diogelwch ar y ffyrdd.

Irene James: I am sure that you will agree that 20 mph zones around schools help to reduce road fatalities not only in my constituency of Islwyn, but right throughout Wales. Will you join me in congratulating Caerphilly County Borough Council on its welcome proposals to include schools in Cwmcarn and Blackwood in this scheme in the near future?

Irene James: Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn cytuno bod parthau 20 mya o gwmpas ysgolion yn helpu i leihau nifer y bobl sy’n marw ar ffyrdd, nid yn unig yn fy etholaeth yn Islwyn, ond ledled Cymru. A ymunwch â mi i longyfarch Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Caerffili am ei gynigion, sydd i’w croesawu, i gynnwys ysgolion yng Nghwm-carn a’r Coed-duon yn y cynllun hwn yn y dyfodol agos?

The First Minister: Right across the borough, Caerphilly has been relatively successful on this issue, as well as in child pedestrian training. I am pleased to see that some 9,700 children across Wales, over 1,200 of them from Caerphilly—which is much more than its population share—have benefited from child pedestrian training through the Kerbcraft scheme.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ar draws y fwrdeistref i gyd, mae Caerffili wedi bod yn gymharol lwyddiannus o ran y mater hwn, yn ogystal ag o ran hyfforddi plant fel cerddwyr. Yr wyf yn falch o weld bod tua 9,700 o blant ledled Cymru, a thros 1,200 ohonynt o Gaerffili—sy’n llawer mwy na’i chyfran o’r boblogaeth—wedi elwa o hyfforddi plant fel cerddwyr drwy’r cynllun Kerbcraft.

2.20 p.m.

 

William Graham: First Minister, I have raised with you previously problems of alleged joyriding in Blackwood town centre. Will you support Gwent Police as it tries to find a sustainable solution to what is a continuing problem? Perhaps the 20 mph speed limit could also be extended to the town centre.

William Graham: Brif Weinidog, yr wyf wedi sôn wrthych o’r blaen am broblemau gwefryrru honedig yng nghanol y dref yng Nghoed-duon. A gefnogwch Heddlu Gwent wrth iddynt geisio canfod ateb cynaliadwy i’r broblem barhaus hon? Efallai y gellid ymestyn y cyfyngiad cyflymder 20 mya i ganol y dref hefyd.

The First Minister: I said earlier, to Irene, that it would be quite wrong for us to try to micromanage this from the Assembly Government level—you just cannot do that. We receive applications for a package of measures from local authorities and we are not in a position to say, 'We will approve that one, but we will not approve that one; design that one differently’. You cannot do that. We are enthusiastic about the way in which the number of road accidents and road deaths continues to fall. There has been a 50 per cent reduction in the number of child road deaths in Wales over the past 10 years. The level is still far too high of course, but we must welcome the fact that the figure has been halved. We are well on the way to achieving an overall 40 per cent reduction in the number of serious casualties, maimings and deaths on roads in Wales. That is our target as well as the target of the UK Government.

Y Prif Weinidog: Dywedais yn gynharach, wrth Irene, y byddai’n hollol anghywir inni geisio microreoli hyn o lefel Llywodraeth y Cynulliad—ni allwch wneud hynny. Yr ydym yn cael ceisiadau am becyn o fesurau gan awdurdodau lleol ac nid ydym yn gallu dweud, 'Cymeradwywn hwn, ond ni chymeradwywn y llall; cynlluniwch hwnnw’n wahanol’. Ni allwch wneud hynny. Yr ydym yn frwdfrydig am y modd y mae nifer y damweiniau ar y ffyrdd a marwolaethau ar y ffyrdd yn parhau i ddisgyn. Bu gostyngiad o 50 y cant yn nifer marwolaethau plant ar ffyrdd yng Nghymru dros y 10 mlynedd diwethaf. Mae’r lefel yn dal yn llawer rhy uchel, wrth gwrs, ond rhaid inni groesawu’r ffaith bod y ffigur wedi’i haneru. Yr ydym ar y trywydd iawn o ran cyflawni gostyngiad cyffredinol o 40 y cant yn nifer yr anafiadau difrifol a’r marwolaethau ar ffyrdd yng Nghymru. Dyna yw ein targed, a dyna yw targed Llywodraeth y DU hefyd.

Mohammad Asghar: I am very pleased at the increase in the number of 20 mph zones outside schools and on busy housing estates in Wales. This is too important a subject for party politics, therefore, will the First Minister join me in congratulating two young men from Blackwood, Darren Jones and Andrew Farina-Childs, who have campaigned hard for a 20 mph speed limit outside Blackwood Comprehensive School and who have launched a national campaign for 20 mph speed limits outside all schools in Wales?

Mohammad Asghar: Yr wyf yn falch iawn o’r cynnydd yn nifer y parthau 20 mya y tu allan i ysgolion ac ar ystadau tai prysur yng Nghymru. Mae’r pwnc hwn yn rhy bwysig i wleidyddiaeth plaid, felly a wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ymuno â mi i longyfarch dau ŵr ifanc o’r Coed-duon, Darren Jones ac Andrew Farina-Childs, sydd wedi ymgyrchu’n galed dros gyfyngiad cyflymder o 20 mya y tu allan i Ysgol Gyfun y Coed-duon ac sydd wedi lansio ymgyrch genedlaethol am gyfyngiadau cyflymder o 20 mya y tu allan i bob ysgol yng Nghymru?

The First Minister: Yes. I am glad that there is what you could call local campaigning on this issue. At least one, if not two, bodies have been set up to campaign against the imposition of 20 mph speed limits, on the grounds that they do not benefit road safety. All the evidence that we have says that there is up to an 80 per cent reduction in the number of serious casualties or deaths where you have Safe Routes to School, 20 mph zones and the rest of the package in terms of child pedestrian training and so on. It does work. All the evidence shows that you get a massive improvement, with up to an 80 per cent reduction in the number of road casualties. Local campaigning of this kind is therefore important to counteract some of the nonsense campaigning on the other side, saying that speed does not kill and that it is okay to be driving cars at 30 mph near schools.

Y Prif Weinidog: Gwnaf. Yr wyf yn falch bod rhywbeth y gallech ei alw’n ymgyrchu lleol yn bodoli o ran y mater hwn. Mae o leiaf un, os nad dau, gorff wedi’u sefydlu i ymgyrchu yn erbyn gosod cyfyngiadau cyflymder o 20 mya, gan hawlio nad ydynt yn gwella diogelwch ar y ffyrdd. Mae’r holl dystiolaeth sydd gennym yn dweud bod gostyngiad hyd at 80 y cant yn nifer yr anafiadau difrifol neu farwolaethau lle y mae gennych Lwybrau Diogel i’r Ysgol, parthau 20 mya a gweddill y pecyn o ran hyfforddi plant fel cerddwyr ac yn y blaen. Mae’n gweithio. Mae’r holl dystiolaeth yn dangos y cewch welliant enfawr, gyda lleihad hyd at 80 y cant yn nifer yr anafiadau ar y ffyrdd. Felly, mae’r math hwn o ymgyrchu lleol yn bwysig i wrthweithio rhywfaint o’r ymgyrchu ffôl ar yr ochr arall, sy’n dweud nad yw cyflymder yn lladd a’i bod yn iawn gyrru ceir ar 30 mya yn agos at ysgolion.

Health Provision

Darpariaeth Iechyd

Q5 Chris Franks: What discussions has the First Minister had regarding health provision in the Cynon valley? OAQ(3)0948(FM)

C5 Chris Franks: Pa drafodaethau mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’u cynnal ynglŷn â darpariaeth iechyd yng nghwm Cynon? OAQ(3)0948(FM)

The First Minister: We are having close discussions with the North Glamorgan NHS Trust and the Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Health Board to take forward massive improvements in health provision in the Cynon valley, which will emerge from our flagship, £65-million combined neighbourhood hospital and primary care dental unit, on which work is now expected to begin in the autumn of this year.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym yn cynnal trafodaethau agos gydag Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gogledd Morgannwg a Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf i fwrw ymlaen â gwelliannau enfawr mewn darpariaeth iechyd yng Nghwm Cynon, yn sgîl ein prosiect blaenllaw, sy’n werth £65 miliwn, sef ysbyty cymdogaeth ac uned ddeintyddol gofal sylfaenol ar y cyd. Disgwylir dechrau gweithio arno yn yr hydref eleni.

Chris Franks: First Minister, I am sure that you will be disappointed with the news that Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council has sold off the Hirwaun nursery school site to a private developer, rather than allowing it to be developed as a medical centre. Local health campaigners now feel that a replacement health centre may never be built. What pressure will you put on Rhondda Cynon Taf council to encourage it to assist the building of a health centre in order to move Cynon valley health services forward?

Chris Franks: Brif Weinidog, yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwch yn siomedig o glywed y newyddion bod Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Rhondda Cynon Taf wedi gwerthu safle ysgol feithrin Hirwaun i ddatblygwr preifat, yn hytrach na chaniatáu ei ddatblygu fel canolfan feddygol. Erbyn hyn mae ymgyrchwyr iechyd lleol yn teimlo na chaiff canolfan iechyd newydd byth ei hadeiladu. Pa bwysau a rowch ar gyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf i’w annog i gynorthwyo i adeiladu canolfan iechyd, er mwyn hyrwyddo gwasanaethau iechyd Cwm Cynon?

The First Minister: I agree with the general sentiment, but I do not agree with the conclusion that the health centre is never going to be built, because we have already found a successful plan-B approach. We have a piece of land and the LHB is now discussing with us the availability of that land. We know that the health centre remains a high priority for the local health board and it is now optimistic that a way ahead has been identified.

Y Prif Weinidog: Cytunaf â’r teimlad cyffredinol, ond nid wyf yn cytuno â’r casgliad na chaiff y ganolfan iechyd byth ei hadeiladu, oherwydd yr ydym eisoes wedi dod o hyd i gynllun B llwyddiannus. Mae gennym ddarn o dir, ac mae’r bwrdd iechyd lleol yn awr yn trafod gyda ni a yw’r tir hwnnw ar gael. Gwyddom fod y ganolfan iechyd yn dal i fod yn flaenoriaeth uchel i’r bwrdd iechyd lleol, ac mae’n awr yn obeithiol bod ffordd ymlaen wedi’i chanfod.

Andrew R.T. Davies: First Minister, it is all well and good building hospitals and health centres—we all commend that, especially in the Cynon valley—but what is also crucial is the working environment of the staff. The Royal College of Nursing yesterday highlighted the bureaucratic nightmare faced by many staff in institutions in the Cynon valley, South Wales Central, and the rest of Wales in terms of clerical work. What action is the Welsh Assembly Government taking to address the workload that nurses and other health professionals, especially community health professionals, face? They have to deal with mountains of paperwork. Much of it is essential, but much of it should be dealt with by clerical staff, not nursing staff.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Brif Weinidog, mae’n dda bod adeiladu ysbytai a chanolfannau iechyd yn digwydd—yr ydym oll yn cymeradwyo hynny, yn enwedig yng Nghwm Cynon—ond yr hyn sy’n hollbwysig hefyd yw amgylchedd gwaith y staff. Ddoe, tynnodd Coleg Brenhinol y Nyrsys sylw at yr hunllef fiwrocrataidd sy’n wynebu llawer o staff mewn sefydliadau yng Nghwm Cynon, Canol De Cymru, a gweddill Cymru o ran gwaith clerigol. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’n eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â’r llwyth gwaith a wynebir gan nyrsys a gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eraill, yn enwedig gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol cymunedol? Maent yn gorfod delio â mynyddoedd o waith papur. Mae llawer ohono’n hanfodol, ond dylai llawer ohono gael ei wneud gan staff clerigol, nid staff nyrsio.

The First Minister: I suppose that that was Tory praise when you said, 'It is all very well building these new hospitals’. I will treasure that comment, Andrew, and I am very grateful for that faint Tory praise for our policy. On the question of bureaucracy preventing health professionals from spending the maximum amount of time doing what they are trained to do—namely providing healthcare—we know that accurate records are important, and we want to ensure that records are not lost, and that paperwork can move around the hospital from one doctor to another, or from a nurse to a doctor. Anyone who has had relatives in hospital for long periods, or has been in hospital for short periods, as I have, knows that record-keeping is important, but it must not be bureaucratic—it must be speeded up, and it must be as foolproof and safe as possible. Edwina Hart has a working group on this very issue, trying to reduce the bureaucratic burden while not losing the essence of good record-keeping, and ensuring that when a patient is moved from one department to another, it does not take a week for the records to follow them. People should not be sent from pillar to post without the necessary records of an x-ray, for example. In that sense, the absence of good record-keeping can also be frustrating for the patient.

Y Prif Weinidog: Cymeraf mai clod gan y Torïaid oedd hynny pan ddywedasoch, 'Mae’n dda bod yr ysbytai newydd hyn yn cael eu hadeiladu’. Trysoraf y sylw hwnnw, Andrew, ac yr wyf yn ddiolchgar iawn am y clod Torïaidd gwan hwnnw i’n polisi. O ran mater biwrocratiaeth yn atal gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol rhag treulio cymaint ag sy’n bosibl o amser yn gwneud yr hyn y maent wedi’i hyfforddi i’w wneud—sef darparu gofal iechyd—gwyddom fod cofnodion cywir yn bwysig, ac yr ydym am sicrhau na chaiff cofnodion eu colli, ac y gall gwaith papur symud o gwmpas yr ysbyty o un meddyg at un arall, neu o nyrs at feddyg. Bydd unrhyw un sydd wedi bod â pherthynas yn yr ysbyty am gyfnodau hir, neu sydd wedi bod yn yr ysbyty am gyfnodau byr, fel yr wyf fi, yn gwybod bod cadw cofnodion yn bwysig, ond rhaid iddo beidio â bod yn fiwrocrataidd—rhaid ei gyflymu, a rhaid iddo fod mor syml a diogel ag sy’n bosibl. Mae gan Edwina Hart weithgor sy’n ymwneud â’r mater hwn, sef ceisio lleihau’r baich biwrocrataidd heb golli hanfod cadw cofnodion da, a sicrhau, pan gaiff claf ei symud o un adran i un arall, nad yw’n cymryd wythnos i’r cofnodion ei ddilyn. Ni ddylid anfon pobl o un lle i’r llall heb y cofnodion angenrheidiol ynglŷn â phelydr-X, er enghraifft. Yn yr ystyr hwnnw, gall diffyg cadw cofnodion da beri rhwystredigaeth i’r claf hefyd.

Christine Chapman: Yesterday, I was pleased to meet with David Francis, the newly appointed chair of the new Cwm Taff NHS Trust, following the recent merger of the North Glamorgan NHS Trust and the Pontypridd and Rhondda NHS Trust. I welcomed the merger because one of the problems that had been identified within the former North Glamorgan NHS Trust was the difficulty of recruiting staff in some specialisms. I am sure that the new arrangement will improve that, but I would like your assurance that the Welsh Assembly Government will not only monitor the improvements, but ensure that the merger will succeed in providing the best quality health provision for the people of the Cynon valley.

Christine Chapman: Ddoe, yr oeddwn yn falch o gyfarfod â David Francis, sydd newydd ei benodi’n gadeirydd yr ymddiriedolaeth newydd, Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Cwm Taf, wedi uno Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gogledd Morgannwg ac Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Pontypridd a’r Rhondda yn ddiweddar. Croesewais yr uno oherwydd mai un o’r problemau a oedd wedi’u canfod yn Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gogledd Morgannwg oedd ei bod yn anodd recriwtio staff mewn rhai meysydd arbenigol. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y trefniant newydd yn gwella hynny, ond hoffwn gael sicrwydd gennych y bydd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, yn ogystal â monitro’r gwelliannau, yn sicrhau y bydd yr uno’n llwyddo o ran rhoi darpariaeth iechyd o’r ansawdd gorau posibl i bobl Cwm Cynon.

The First Minister: We all know that the recruitment of top grade health professionals to work in primary care and in hospital services becomes more difficult the further north you go—the further away you go from the medical schools in Cardiff and Swansea. That has always been the case: the upper Valleys are more difficult than the middle Valleys, and they are more difficult than the fringes around the M4, and they in turn are more difficult than Cardiff. Solving that problem is one of the reasons for the merger. On the hospital side you now have a big clinical network, because you have several hospitals in the same pool under the same clinical director. Likewise, there has been a revolution in our ability, through salaried GPs, and so on, to offer keen young doctors the kind of contracts that they want—so that they can work for five years without making a lifetime commitment. Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Health Board has been successful in bringing keen young professionals into medicine and nursing in the middle and upper Valleys. I certainly hope that the merger continues to have that effect, but we will monitor it to ensure that we crack that long-standing problem, which goes back to well before the foundation of the health service 60 years ago.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym oll yn gwybod bod recriwtio gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol o’r radd flaenaf i weithio mewn gofal sylfaenol ac mewn gwasanaethau ysbyty’n mynd yn anos wrth fynd ymhellach i’r gogledd—wrth fynd ymhellach o ysgolion meddygol Caerdydd ac Abertawe. Mae hynny’n wir erioed: mae blaenau’r Cymoedd yn anos na chanol y Cymoedd, ac maent hwythau’n anos na chyrion yr M4, ac maent hwythau yn eu tro’n anos na Chaerdydd. Datrys y broblem honno yw un o’r rhesymau dros uno. Ar ochr yr ysbyty, yn awr mae gennych rwydwaith clinigol mawr, gan fod gennych nifer o ysbytai yn yr un gronfa dan yr un cyfarwyddwr clinigol. Yn yr un modd, bu chwyldro yn ein gallu, drwy feddygon teulu cyflogedig, ac yn y blaen, i gynnig y math o gontractau i feddygon ifanc brwd y mae arnynt eu heisiau—fel y gallant weithio am bum mlynedd heb wneud ymrwymiad am oes. Mae Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf wedi bod yn llwyddiannus o ran dod â gweithwyr proffesiynol ifanc brwd i feddygaeth a nyrsio yng nghanol y Cymoedd a blaenau’r Cymoedd. Yr wyf yn sicr yn gobeithio bod yr uno’n parhau i gael yr effaith honno, ond byddwn yn ei fonitro i sicrhau ein bod yn goresgyn yr hen broblem honno, sy’n mynd yn ôl lawer ymhellach na sefydlu’r gwasanaeth iechyd 60 mlynedd yn ôl.

Support Given to Veterans

Cefnogaeth a Roddir i Gyn-filwyr

Q6 Darren Millar: Will the First Minister outline support given by the Welsh Assembly Government to veterans in Wales? OAQ(3)0944(FM)

C6 Darren Millar: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu’r gefnogaeth a roddir gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gyn-filwyr yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0944(FM)

The First Minister: On 4 February we launched a two-year pilot project called the community veterans mental health therapy service. It is jointly funded by the Assembly Government and the Ministry of Defence, and is one of six projects being rolled out across the UK to ensure that a service is provided that is tailored to the needs of veterans in Wales and elsewhere.

Y Prif Weinidog: Ar 4 Chwefror, lansiwyd brosiect peilot dwy flynedd gennym, sef y gwasanaeth therapi iechyd meddwl cymunedol i gyn-filwyr. Mae’n cael ei ariannu ar y cyd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn, ac mae’n un o chwe phrosiect sy’n cael eu cyflwyno ledled y DU i sicrhau bod gwasanaeth yn cael ei ddarparu sydd wedi’i deilwra at anghenion cyn-filwyr yng Nghymru ac mewn mannau eraill.

Darren Millar: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Will you join me in expressing concern that the current GP contract in Wales does not include the provision of free medical certificates for veterans seeking the support of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association? Along with other charities, it provides free equipment for veterans to improve their quality of life, tailored towards their needs or disabilities resulting from having been in service. Given that its provision of this sort of equipment saves significant amounts of money for the NHS in Wales, and that the lack of it causes hardship for veterans and their families, will you look at addressing this issue as soon as possible?

Darren Millar: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog. A ymunwch â mi i fynegi pryder nad yw’r contract meddygon teulu presennol yng Nghymru yn cynnwys darparu tystysgrifau meddygol am ddim i gyn-filwyr sy’n ceisio cefnogaeth Cymdeithas y Milwyr, Llongwyr, Awyrenwyr a’u Teuluoedd? Ynghyd ag elusennau eraill, mae’n darparu cyfarpar am ddim i gyn-filwyr wella eu hansawdd bywyd, wedi’u teilwra at eu hanghenion neu eu hanableddau o ganlyniad i wasanaethu. O ystyried bod darparu’r math hwn o gyfarpar yn arbed arian sylweddol i’r GIG yng Nghymru, a bod diffyg cyfarpar o’r fath yn achosi caledi i gyn-filwyr a’u teuluoedd, a ystyriwch fynd i’r afael â’r mater hwn cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl?

The First Minister: Edwina Hart is looking at this question now, because this is not a dispute, as I understand it, between us and SSAFA, it is a dispute between SSAFA’s central office and a particular branch of SSAFA in your constituency. Edwina Hart has been doing her best to facilitate an agreement because of the provision of specific medical rehabilitation equipment by SSAFA Forces Help. Then there is the question of what information you provide to SSAFA Forces Help before you can be approved for the use of the equipment. We are trying to facilitate a greater level of agreement between the two levels of SSAFA.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae Edwina Hart yn edrych ar y cwestiwn hwn yn awr, oherwydd, yn ôl a ddeallaf, nid anghydfod rhyngom ni a SSAFA ydyw, ond anghydfod rhwng swyddfa ganolog SSAFA ac un gangen benodol o SSAFA yn eich etholaeth. Mae Edwina Hart wedi bod yn gwneud ei gorau glas i hwyluso cytundeb oherwydd bod Cymorth Lluoedd SSAFA yn darparu cyfarpar adsefydlu meddygol penodol. Yn ogystal mae’r cwestiwn yn ymwneud â pha wybodaeth y byddwch yn ei darparu i Gymorth Lluoedd SSAFA cyn y gellir eich cymeradwyo i ddefnyddio’r cyfarpar. Yr ydym yn ceisio hwyluso gwell cytundeb rhwng dwy lefel SSAFA.

Janet Ryder: Would you agree that, unfortunately, some of the problems that these young people are returning with are compounded by their inability to access suitable living accommodation? They are offered accommodation by local authorities, but often need quieter, settled communities. Will you agree to work with the Deputy Minister for Housing to look at those needs? It has been an ongoing problem for many years, and the increasing number of young people returning from active service with problems needs to be taken seriously, especially with regard to housing needs.

Janet Ryder: A fyddech yn cytuno bod rhai o’r problemau sydd gan y bobl ifanc hyn wrth iddynt ddychwelyd yn cael eu cymhlethu, yn anffodus, am nad oes llety byw addas ar gael iddynt? Bydd awdurdodau lleol yn cynnig llety iddynt, ond yn aml bydd arnynt angen cymunedau tawelach, sefydlog. A gytunwch i weithio gyda’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Dai i edrych ar yr anghenion hynny? Mae wedi bod yn broblem barhaus ers blynyddoedd lawer, ac mae angen cymryd y nifer cynyddol o bobl ifanc sydd â phroblemau wedi iddynt ddychwelyd ar ôl bod yn gwasanaethu o ddifrif, yn enwedig o ran anghenion tai.

2.30 p.m.

 

The First Minister: What I told Darren Millar a few minutes ago was not all that we have done to make the lives of veterans with service-related problem conditions better over the past few years. The change in the homelessness regulations, so that homeless veterans now have protection as priority cases, is another change that we have made, as is the change to extend priority NHS treatment to all veterans whose medical condition is believed to be service related. Therefore, on top of what I mentioned to Darren, are these other two areas where we are trying to improve the lives of veterans in line with the idea of a covenant between us and the people who serve in the armed forces, who sometimes come out of the forces not as fit and well as they were when they went in, and who should benefit from what the nation can provide for them.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid yr hyn a ddywedais wrth Darren Millar ychydig funudau’n ôl oedd y cwbl yr ydym wedi’i wneud i wella bywydau cyn-filwyr a chanddynt broblemau sy’n gysylltiedig â’u gwasanaeth yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae’r newid yn y rheoliadau digartrefedd, fel y caiff cyn-filwyr digartref bellach warchodaeth fel achosion sy’n cael blaenoriaeth, yn newid arall yr ydym wedi’i wneud, ynghyd â’r newid i estyn triniaeth sy’n cael blaenoriaeth dan y GIG i bob cyn-filwr y credir bod ei gyflwr meddygol yn gysylltiedig â’i wasanaeth. Felly, ar ben yr hyn a grybwyllais wrth Darren, y mae’r ddau faes arall hyn lle’r ydym yn ceisio gwella bywydau cyn-filwyr yn unol â’r syniad o gyfamod rhyngom a’r bobl sy’n gwasanaethu yn y lluoedd arfog, a ddaw allan o’r lluoedd weithiau heb fod mor heini ac iach ag yr oeddent pan aethant i mewn, ac a ddylai gael budd o’r hyn y gall y genedl ei ddarparu iddynt.

Supporting People Revenue Grant

Grant Refeniw Cefnogi Pobl

Q7 Peter Black: Will the First Minister make a statement on the Supporting People revenue grant? OAQ(3)0942(FM)

C7 Peter Black: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am y grant refeniw Cefnogi Pobl? OAQ(3)0942(FM)

The First Minister: It will increase by £25 million over three years: a 3 per cent increase in this year; a 3.45 per cent increase the following year; and an increase of 3.42 per cent in 2010-11.

Y Prif Weinidog: Bydd yn cynyddu £25 miliwn dros dair blynedd: cynnydd o 3 y cant eleni; cynnydd o 3.45 y cant yn y flwyddyn ganlynol; a chynnydd o 3.42 y cant yn 2010-11.

Peter Black: Thank you for that answer, First Minister, which is certainly in line with the 'One Wales’ document, which promised a year-on-year increase in the Supporting People budget. However, I understand that, because there was an overspend on Supporting People last year, this year’s increase has effectively been subsumed by that overspend and that the actual increase being received by providers in the current year is not above the rate of inflation, as promised in the 'One Wales’ document. Can you confirm whether that is true, and, if it is, can you explain why you have departed from the spirit of the 'One Wales’ document?

Peter Black: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog, sydd yn sicr yn cyd-fynd â’r ddogfen 'Cymru’n Un’, a addawodd gynnydd blynyddol yng nghyllideb Cefnogi Pobl. Fodd bynnag, deallaf, oherwydd bod gorwariant ar Gefnogi Pobl y llynedd, fod y cynnydd eleni i bob pwrpas wedi’i lyncu gan y gorwariant hwnnw ac nad yw’r cynnydd gwirioneddol a roddir i ddarparwyr yn y flwyddyn gyfredol yn uwch na chyfradd chwyddiant, fel yr addawyd yn y ddogfen 'Cymru’n Un’. A allwch gadarnhau a yw hynny’n wir, ac os ydyw, a allwch esbonio pam nad ydych wedi cadw at ysbryd y ddogfen 'Cymru’n Un’?

The First Minister: It is a tangled matter, because of a particular issue to do with substance misuse schemes, and I will ask the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government to write to you, to ensure that I understand your question correctly and that you get a full answer rather than the answer that you would get orally today. I think there is something in what you said, in that there has been a bolstering of the Supporting People budget from underspends in the social justice budget for the past few years. The question then is whether there would still be a bolstering of the budget, and, if not, how we will continue with the substance misuse programmes and the general Supporting People budget. I will ask Brian to write to you about this in full.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n fater cymhleth, oherwydd mater arbennig yn ymwneud â chynlluniau camddefnyddio sylweddau, a gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol ysgrifennu atoch, i sicrhau fy mod yn deall eich cwestiwn yn iawn ac y cewch ateb llawn yn hytrach na’r ateb a gaech ar lafar heddiw. Yr wyf yn meddwl bod rhywbeth yn yr hyn a ddywedasoch, sef bod cyllideb Cefnogi Pobl wedi’i chryfhau gan danwariannau yn y gyllideb ar gyfer cyfiawnder cymdeithasol yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Y cwestiwn wedyn yw a fyddai’r gyllideb yn dal i gael ei chryfhau, ac, os na fyddai, sut y gwnawn barhau â’r rhaglenni camddefnyddio sylweddau a chyllideb gyffredinol Cefnogi Pobl. Gofynnaf i Brian ysgrifennu atoch ynghylch hyn yn llawn.

Mark Isherwood: Following on from Peter’s concerns, Community Housing Cymru is concerned that the absence of an inflationary uplift in practice to providers this year will result in serious cutbacks to schemes and put some schemes at risk. I have discussed this with the Deputy Minister for Housing, and she explained well, constructively and factually that this was because the inflationary uplift last year was outside the budget limits. In other words, the inflationary uplift the year before the election has to be funded from this year’s budget. Given that Supporting People is focused on vulnerable groups and is having a positive impact on outcomes and costs for housing, education, tackling crime, addiction and so much more, why did your Government not commit in its budgets for the last two years to ensuring that there was an uplift in Supporting People that at least kept up with the rate of inflation? Will you commit to doing that in future?

Mark Isherwood: Yn sgîl pryderon Peter, mae Cartrefi Cymunedol Cymru’n pryderu y bydd diffyg cynnydd gwirioneddol o ran chwyddiant i ddarparwyr eleni’n arwain at gwtogi difrifol ar gynlluniau, gan beryglu rhai cynlluniau. Yr wyf wedi trafod hyn gyda’r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Dai, ac esboniodd yn dda, yn adeiladol ac yn ffeithiol, mai’r rheswm dros hyn oedd bod y cynnydd i ganlyn chwyddiant y llynedd y tu allan i derfynau’r gyllideb. Mewn geiriau eraill, rhaid talu am y cynnydd i ganlyn chwyddiant y flwyddyn cyn yr etholiad allan o gyllideb eleni. Gan fod Cefnogi Pobl yn canolbwyntio ar grwpiau sy’n agored i niwed a’i fod yn cael effaith gadarnhaol ar ganlyniadau a chostau ar gyfer tai, addysg, mynd i’r afael â throseddau, caethiwed a llawer iawn heblaw hynny, pam nad ymrwymodd eich Llywodraeth yn ei chyllidebau ar gyfer y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf i sicrhau bod cynnydd ym maes Cefnogi Pobl a fyddai o leiaf yn canlyn cyfradd chwyddiant? A wnewch ymrwymo i wneud hynny yn y dyfodol?

The First Minister: This has been a difficult area ever since the Treasury, effectively without any 'by your leave’, transferred the responsibility for funding Supporting People from the central budget to us some years ago. We strongly support the Supporting People area of activities, for the reasons that you mentioned, but, for some reason, they do not think that Supporting People is that important in Westminster, and I understand that its budget is being cut by a cumulative 3.5 per cent a year over the budget period in Westminster, when we are increasing it by 3.5 per cent. The complexities to which you referred in the transfer from the 2007-08 budget to the 2008-09 budget are essentially the same issue that Peter raised, so I will ensure that you get a copy of the letter that I have asked Brian to send to Peter Black.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae hwn wedi bod yn faes anodd, byth oddi ar i’r Trysorlys, a hynny i bob pwrpas heb ofyn caniatâd, drosglwyddo’r cyfrifoldeb am ariannu Cefnogi Pobl o’r gyllideb ganolog i ni rai blynyddoedd yn ôl. Yr ydym yn gryf o blaid maes gweithgareddau Cefnogi Pobl, am y rhesymau a grybwyllasoch, ond, am ryw reswm, nid ydynt hwy’n meddwl bod Cefnogi Pobl mor bwysig â hynny yn San Steffan, a deallaf fod ei gyllideb yn cael ei gwtogi 3.5 y cant y flwyddyn, yn gronnol, dros gyfnod y gyllideb yn San Steffan, a ninnau’n ei gynyddu 3.5 y cant. Yr un cwestiwn i bob pwrpas yw’r cymhlethdodau y cyfeiriasoch atynt yn y trosglwyddiad o gyllideb 2007-08 i gyllideb 2008-09 â hwnnw a godwyd gan Peter, felly fe sicrhaf y cewch chithau gopi o’r llythyr yr wyf wedi gofyn i Brian ei anfon at Peter Black.

Y Llywydd: Tynnwyd cwestiynau 8 a 9, OAQ(3)0938(FM) a OAQ(3)0956(FM), yn ôl.

The Presiding Officer: Questions 8 and 9, OAQ(3)0938(FM) and OAQ(3)0956(FM), have been withdrawn.

Improving Public Service Delivery

Gwella Darpariaeth Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus

Q10 Nick Ramsay: Will the First Minister make a statement on improving public service delivery in Wales? OAQ(3)0955(FM)

C10 Nick Ramsay: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am wella darpariaeth gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0955(FM)

The First Minister: It is an absolutely vital challenge for all of us in Wales—not only for us as a Government, but for the health service and local government, because we are in for a period of tighter public service growth. That is better than cuts, but, on the other hand, it is not as good as what we have been used to in terms of having increases above inflation each year. In the second Assembly, we had increases of 6.5 per cent in cash; 10 per cent in the first Assembly; now it is perhaps 4.5 per cent, which is not much above inflation. Therefore, we have to stretch what we get from the Welsh pound. That applies to local government, to us, and to the health service.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n her gwbl allweddol i ni i gyd yng Nghymru—nid yn unig i ni fel Llywodraeth, ond i’r gwasanaeth iechyd a llywodraeth leol, oherwydd yr ydym yn wynebu cyfnod o lai o dwf mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae hynny’n well na thoriadau, ond, ar y llaw arall, nid yw cystal â’r hyn yr ydym wedi arfer ag ef o ran cael cynnydd uwch na chwyddiant bob blwyddyn. Yn yr ail Gynulliad, cawsom gynnydd o 6.5 y cant mewn arian; 10 y cant yn y Cynulliad cyntaf; bellach 4.5 y cant ydyw efallai, nad yw fawr mwy na chwyddiant. Felly, rhaid inni ymestyn yr hyn a gawn gan y bunt yng Nghymru. Mae hynny’n wir am lywodraeth leol, amdanom ni ac am y gwasanaeth iechyd.

Nick Ramsay: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. I agree with what you said about the scale of this year’s local government settlement and the problems that it is causing.

Nick Ramsay: Diolch am yr ateb hwnnw, Brif Weinidog. Cytunaf â’r hyn a ddywedasoch am faint y setliad i lywodraeth leol eleni a’r problemau y mae’n eu hachosi.

The Beecham review clearly put the focus on public service delivery rather than the reorganisation of local authorities as the way to proceed with public service improvement. There seem to have been some noises from your Government lately suggesting that local government reorganisation might come back onto the agenda. Where do you stand on this? Do you believe that local government structure is a part of this, or do you think that public service delivery is what really matters here?

Rhoddodd adolygiad Beecham y ffocws yn glir ar gyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn hytrach nag ad-drefnu awdurdodau lleol o ran sut i fynd ati i wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae’n debyg bod ambell awgrym wedi dod o gyfeiriad eich Llywodraeth yn ddiweddar y gallai ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol ddod yn ôl ar yr agenda. Beth yw eich safbwynt ynghylch hyn? A ydych yn credu bod strwythur llywodraeth leol yn rhan o hyn, ynteu a ydych yn credu mai cyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw’r peth sydd o wir bwys yn hyn o beth?

The First Minister: It is absolutely the same as it was when we commissioned the Beecham review. Beecham stated that it was his view, as did Derek Vaughan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association. We all must try to improve service delivery and extract the best through collaboration and through greater efficiencies in local government—if we want to concentrate just on local government—or local government plus the police, local government plus the health service on delayed transfers of care, or local government plus another agency of ours. Whatever it is, we must try to use this window of opportunity now to say that we can do it with the present structure. As everyone said at the time that we commissioned Beecham, and in the view of the WLGA, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The ability to deliver greater efficiencies under the present structure will determine whether, at some point down the line, local government reorganisation—which would horrify me—comes back onto the agenda. However, it will inevitably come back onto the agenda if we fail to achieve the kind of collaboration efficiencies that I expect us to achieve.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae’n union yr un fath ag yr oedd pan gomisiynwyd adolygiad Beecham gennym. Dywedodd Beecham mai hynny oedd ei farn ef, ac ategwyd hynny gan Derek Vaughan, arweinydd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Rhaid inni i gyd geisio gwella’r modd y cyflenwir gwasanaethau a sicrhau’r gorau drwy gydweithio a thrwy fwy o effeithlonrwydd mewn llywodraeth leol—os ydym am ganolbwyntio ar lywodraeth leol yn unig—neu lywodraeth leol ynghyd â’r heddlu, llywodraeth leol ynghyd â’r gwasanaeth iechyd o ran oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal, neu lywodraeth leol ynghyd ag asiantaeth arall o’n heiddo. Beth bynnag y bo, rhaid inni geisio achub y cyfle hwn yn awr i ddweud y gallwn ei wneud gyda’r strwythur presennol. Fel y dywedodd pawb yr adeg y gwnaethom gomisiynu Beecham, ac yng ngolwg Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, wrth ei flas y mae profi pwdin. Bydd y gallu i sicrhau mwy o effeithlonrwydd dan y strwythur presennol yn penderfynu a ddaw ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol—a fyddai’n codi arswyd arnaf fi—yn ôl ar yr agenda ryw dro. Fodd bynnag, mae’n anochel y daw’n ôl ar yr agenda os methwn sicrhau’r math o effeithlonrwydd drwy gydweithio y disgwyliaf inni eu sicrhau.

Bethan Jenkins: The recent report by Barnardo’s Cymru and the Bevan Foundation, 'Children in Severe Poverty in Wales—an Agenda for Action’ emphasises that there should be more joined-up thinking between public services with regard to child poverty and that child poverty should be a high priority for the new local service boards. What is your opinion on this? Will the Government be putting these recommendations into action?

Bethan Jenkins: Mae’r adroddiad yn ddiweddar gan Barnardo’s Cymru a Sefydliad Bevan, 'Children in Severe Poverty in Wales—an Agenda for Action’, yn pwysleisio y dylai fod mwy o feddwl cydgysylltiedig rhwng y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng nghyswllt tlodi plant ac y dylai tlodi ymhlith plant fod yn flaenoriaeth uchel i’r byrddau gwasanaethau lleol newydd. Beth yw eich barn am hyn? A fydd y Llywodraeth yn rhoi’r argymhellion hyn ar waith?

The First Minister: I have not read the report produced by the Bevan Foundation and its partners. However, I understand the point that you are making, in a way, on their behalf. There is a level of severe poverty experienced by those who have not benefited in the main from the welfare-to-work-type agenda that has been followed by the Westminster Government and us very successfully, which is based on the idea that work is the best route out of poverty. Not everyone seems to be able to get into the system, and some people are still better off on benefits, particularly if they have a large family, or are simply unable to access the benefits, or are unable to access the money economy through wages. These are the people at the bottom of the heap, if you like. There are still many of those, and you must have policies that help to meet their needs as well.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf wedi darllen yr adroddiad a luniwyd gan Sefydliad Bevan a’i bartneriaid. Fodd bynnag, deallaf y pwynt yr ydych yn ei wneud, mewn ffordd, ar eu rhan. Mae lefel o dlodi difrifol a brofir gan rai sydd heb elwa ar y cyfan o’r agenda o fudd-dal i waith sydd wedi’i dilyn gan Lywodraeth San Steffan a ninnau’n llwyddiannus iawn, sy’n seiliedig ar y syniad mai gwaith yw’r ffordd orau allan o dlodi. Nid yw’n ymddangos bod pawb yn gallu dod yn rhan o’r system, ac mae rhai pobl yn dal yn well eu byd ar fudd-daliadau, yn enwedig os oes ganddynt deulu mawr, neu maent yn methu cael y budd-daliadau, neu’n methu ymuno â’r economi arian drwy gyflogau. Dyma’r bobl ar waelod y domen, os mynnwch. Mae llawer o’r rheini o hyd, a rhaid ichi gael polisïau a fydd yn helpu i ddiwallu eu hanghenion hwythau hefyd.

The Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrat Group (Michael German): One area of service delivery that is important is the healthcare that many Welsh people get in the NHS in England. Last year, 49,000 patients from Wales travelled to England for their healthcare; is that too many?

Arweinydd Grŵp Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Michael German): Un maes o ran darparu gwasanaethau sydd yn bwysig yw’r gofal iechyd a gaiff llawer o Gymry yn y GIG yn Lloegr. Y llynedd, teithiodd 49,000 o gleifion o Gymru i Loegr am eu gofal iechyd; a ydyw hynny’n ormod?

The First Minister: That is a commissioning decision for local health boards; we do not make those commissioning decisions. I have heard us accused of sometimes trying to stop people from crossing the border for treatment, and now you are saying that too many people are crossing the border for treatment. I do not think that there is a right figure; it is about getting the right treatment rather than having the right total and saying, 'This is a horror story; the Western Mail should run a headline on it.’. That seems to be nonsense to me. How good is the treatment? How quick was the treatment? When people returned home, did they get the appropriate follow-up treatment or did it involve a long journey back to the consultant for a follow-up a year later? The key things are the quality of treatment and access to treatment, not whether this number sounds big in a Western Mail headline.

Y Prif Weinidog: Penderfyniad comisiynu i fyrddau iechyd lleol yw hynny; nid ydym ni’n gwneud y penderfyniadau comisiynu hynny. Yr wyf wedi clywed pobl yn ein cyhuddo weithiau o geisio atal pobl rhag croesi’r ffin i gael triniaeth, ac yn awr yr ydych chithau’n dweud bod gormod o bobl yn croesi’r ffin i gael triniaeth. Nid wyf yn meddwl bod ffigur iawn; mater o gael y driniaeth iawn ydyw yn hytrach na chael y cyfanswm iawn a dweud, 'Dyma stori ddychrynllyd; dylai’r Western Mail roi pennawd iddi.’. Mae hynny’n ymddangos yn lol i mi. Pa mor dda yw’r driniaeth? Pa mor gyflym oedd y driniaeth? Pan ddaeth pobl adref, a gawsant y driniaeth ddilynol briodol ynteu a fu’n rhaid wrth siwrnai faith yn ôl at yr ymgynghorydd i gael gwasanaeth dilynol ymhen blwyddyn? Y pethau allweddol yw ansawdd y driniaeth a mynediad at driniaeth, nid a ydyw’r nifer hwn yn swnio’n fawr mewn pennawd yn y Western Mail.

Michael German: If the quality of care is right, why did the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust tell the Welsh Affairs Committee in the House of Commons that it was £2 million down per year and that NHS trusts in Bristol, Hereford, and Chester are in exactly the same position? Are they being short-changed by your Government and, therefore, are patients in Wales not getting the best quality of service, such as that which you just described, because of that?

Michael German: Os yw ansawdd y gofal yn iawn, pam y dywedodd Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Ysbyty Amwythig a Telford wrth y Pwyllgor Materion Cymreig yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin fod ganddi £2 filiwn yn llai eleni a bod ymddiriedolaethau’r GIG ym Mryste, Henffordd a Chaer yn yr un sefyllfa’n union? A ydynt yn cael bargen wael gan eich Llywodraeth ac, felly, a ydyw cleifion yng Nghymru yn cael gwasanaeth sydd heb fod o’r ansawdd gorau, fel yr un yr ydych newydd ei ddisgrifio, oherwydd hynny?

The First Minister: If a local health trust in England that treats Welsh patients wants to be paid more money than is in its contract, it should use, as many are doing, its local MPs to do that lobbying. I do not think that it should use you.

Y Prif Weinidog: Os yw ymddiriedolaeth iechyd leol yn Lloegr sy’n trin cleifion o Gymru’n awyddus i gael mwy o arian nag sydd yn ei chontract, dylai ddefnyddio’i ASau lleol i wneud y lobïo hwnnw, fel y mae llawer ohonynt yn gwneud. Nid wyf yn meddwl y dylai eich defnyddio chi.

2.40 p.m.

 

You should be on the side of the Welsh public purse in line with the earlier reply that I gave to Nick Ramsay. We are trying to get more money for the Welsh pound. You are joining them in lobbying us to pay more than what is in the contract.

Dylech chi fod ar ochr pwrs cyhoeddus Cymru yn unol â’r ateb cynharach a roddais i Nick Ramsay. Yr ydym yn ceisio cael mwy o arian am y bunt yng Nghymru. Yr ydych chi’n ymuno â hwy i’n lobïo ni i dalu mwy na’r hyn sydd yn y contract.

English primary care trusts were simply given more money to use the new tariff. We asked the Department of Health whether, with regard to patients from Powys who are treated in Shrewsbury and Hereford, it would give us the extra money that it gives to the local health boards in England so that we could go onto the new tariff. The Department of Health said, 'No; it is up to you.’. Therefore, we continued with the old tariff, and the service provider in Shrewsbury does not like it. However, it is in the contract; we cannot be expected to provide more money than is in the contract. The service provider is being paid what it is contracted to receive for the treatments that it is contracted to give. You should be supporting the Welsh local health boards on that.

Yn syml, rhoddwyd mwy o arian i ymddiriedolaethau gofal sylfaenol yn Lloegr i ddefnyddio’r tariff newydd. Holasom yr Adran Iechyd a fyddai, yng nghyd-destun cleifion o Bowys a gaiff eu trin yn Amwythig a Henffordd, yn rhoi i ni yr arian ychwanegol y mae’n ei roi i’r byrddau iechyd lleol yn Lloegr fel y gallem ninnau fynd ar y tariff newydd. Dywedodd yr Adran Iechyd, 'Na; mae’n fater i chi’. Felly, fe wnaethom barhau gyda’r hen dariff, ac nid yw’r darparwr gwasanaeth yn Amwythig yn hoffi hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae yn y contract; ni ellir disgwyl i ni ddarparu mwy o arian nag sydd yn y contract. Telir i’r darparwr gwasanaeth yr hyn y mae dan gontract i’w gael am y triniaethau y mae dan gontract i’w rhoi. Dylech fod yn cefnogi byrddau iechyd lleol Cymru ynghylch hynny.

Michael German: I support Welsh patients who will not have their treatment. I will read you the headline of a North Bristol NHS Trust memorandum:

Michael German: Yr wyf yn cefnogi cleifion o Gymru na fyddant yn cael eu triniaeth. Darllenaf ichi’r pennawd o femorandwm gan Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Gogledd Bryste:

'Please DO NOT book Welsh patients/residents with follow-up outpatient appointments and/or new outpatient appointments. DO NOT list Welsh patients/residents for surgery at NBT… It is regret (sic) that NBT find it necessary to take this action that relates to the difficulty associated with non-payment for treatment provided to Welsh residents.’

Os gwelwch yn dda, PEIDIWCH â threfnu apwyntiadau dilynol i gleifion allanol a/nac apwyntiadau allanol newydd i gleifion/ trigolion o Gymru. PEIDIWCH â rhestru cleifion/trigolion o Gymru ar gyfer llawdriniaeth yn NBT ... Gyda gofid y mae NBT yn gweld yr angen i gymryd y cam hwn sy’n ymwneud â’r anhawster sy’n gysylltiedig â diffyg talu am driniaeth a ddarperir i drigolion Cymru.

It is a problem for the English Government—or someone in England—because we are not just talking about Chester; we are talking about Shrewsbury, Hereford and Bristol, which are all on our borders. The service providers are not taking Welsh patients who want to be treated in these hospitals because they say that they are not getting payment for treatment. If the money is not coming to you because someone in London says, 'We are not giving it to you.’, tell us that and tell us what the problem is. For goodness’ sake, tell us what the answer is for these patients who need to be treated and will no longer have that treatment because of an instruction from their health trust in England.

Mae’n broblem i Lywodraeth Lloegr—neu rywun yn Lloegr—oherwydd nid sôn am Gaer yn unig yr ydym; yr ydym yn sôn am Amwythig, Henffordd a Bryste, sydd i gyd am y ffin â ni. Nid yw’r darparwyr gwasanaeth yn derbyn cleifion o Gymru sydd am gael eu trin yn yr ysbytai hyn am eu bod yn dweud nad ydynt yn cael tâl am y driniaeth. Os nad ydych yn cael yr arian am fod rhywun yn Llundain yn dweud, 'Nid ydym yn ei roi ichi’, dywedwch hynny wrthym a dywedwch wrthym beth yw’r broblem. Da chi, dywedwch wrthym beth yw’r ateb i’r cleifion hyn y mae arnynt angen triniaeth ac na chânt y driniaeth honno mwyach oherwydd cyfarwyddyd gan eu hymddiriedolaeth iechyd yn Lloegr.

The First Minister: I just told you what the problem is. A new tariff system was introduced in England, which involved additional sums of money being given to the primary care trusts as a dowry to go with the installation of a new tariff. We said that this would have an impact in Wales and asked that our local health boards, which have historic contracts with the hospitals in Shrewsbury, Chester, Hereford and so on, be given the same additional sums of money to go onto the new tariff. The Department of Health said 'No’, to which I then said, 'Okay; I hope that you realise what this means: we will continue with the old tariff’, which is what we are doing.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf newydd ddweud wrthych beth yw’r broblem. Cyflwynwyd system dariffau newydd yn Lloegr, a oedd yn golygu rhoi symiau ychwanegol o arian i’r ymddiriedolaethau gofal sylfaenol fel gwaddol i gyd-fynd â sefydlu’r tariff newydd. Dywedasom y câi hyn effaith yng Nghymru a gofynasom am i’n byrddau iechyd lleol ni, sydd â chontractau hanesyddol gyda’r ysbytai yn Amwythig, Caer, Henffordd ac yn y blaen, gael yr un symiau ychwanegol o arian i fynd ar y tariff newydd. Dywedodd yr Adran Iechyd 'Na’, ac wedyn atebais innau, 'Iawn; gobeithio y sylweddolwch beth y mae hyn yn ei olygu: byddwn yn parhau gyda’r hen dariff’, a dyna yr ydym yn ei wneud.

The service providers are paid the amount stated in the contract for the treatment. Therefore, they are contracted to do that. They may try to wriggle out of it, but they are still contracted to provide that treatment for that sum of money. That is the contract and they must continue to abide by it.

Telir i’r darparwyr gwasanaeth y swm a bennir yn y contract am y driniaeth. Felly, maent dan gontract i wneud hynny. Gallant geisio sleifio allan ohono, ond maent yn dal o dan gontract i ddarparu’r driniaeth honno am y swm hwnnw o arian. Dyna’r contract a rhaid iddynt barhau i lynu ato.

Climate Change

Newid yn yr Hinsawdd

Q11 Janet Ryder: What steps has the Welsh Assembly Government taken to help tackle climate change? OAQ(3)0947(FM)

C11 Janet Ryder: Pa gamau mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi’u cymryd er mwyn helpu i fynd i’r afael â newid yn yr hinsawdd? OAQ(3)0947(FM)

The First Minister: The Assembly Government is taking a wide range of actions across all policy areas to address climate change holistically. Key examples are the creation of the Climate Change Commission, which has had its first meeting; securing new powers through the Climate Change Bill going through Westminster; and publishing the renewable energy route-map consultation and work to deliver the 3 per cent annual reduction target within devolved areas of competence.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cymryd ystod eang o gamau ar draws pob maes polisi i fynd i’r afael â newid yn yr hinsawdd yn gyfannol. Enghreifftiau allweddol yw creu’r Comisiwn ar y Newid yn yr Hinsawdd, sydd wedi cyfarfod am y tro cyntaf; sicrhau pwerau newydd drwy’r Mesur Newid yn yr Hinsawdd sy’n mynd drwy San Steffan; a chyhoeddi’r ymgynghoriad ar y trywydd ynni adnewyddadwy a gweithio i gyrraedd y targed o gwtogi 3 y cant y flwyddyn o fewn meysydd cymhwysedd sydd wedi’u datganoli.

Janet Ryder: I am sure that you would agree that it would be worth investigating a scheme that would not only reduce carbon emissions by three-quarters, but reduce energy consumption and save taxpayers’ money. Are you aware of the work carried out by Allan Jones in the borough of Woking, where he has done just that? The borough council has established combined heat and power plants locally throughout the borough, drastically reduced its emissions, and increased its ability to use locally produced energy. It has been so successful that Ken Livingstone has taken it up on a London scale, establishing the London Climate Change Agency. I recently met with Allan Jones and was extremely impressed with the work that he is doing. I am convinced that the work that he has done could be rolled out nationally and locally in Wales. I am asking you to investigate that work seriously, as we could, incredibly, quickly reduce our emissions practically to zero.

Janet Ryder: Yr wyf yn siŵr y cytunech y byddai’n werth ymchwilio i gynllun a fyddai nid yn unig yn lleihau allyriadau carbon o dri chwarter, ond yn lleihau’r defnydd o ynni ac yn arbed arian y trethdalwyr. A ydych yn ymwybodol o’r gwaith sydd ar droed gan Allan Jones ym mwrdeistref Woking, lle y mae wedi gwneud yr union beth hwnnw? Mae’r cyngor bwrdeistref wedi sefydlu gweithfeydd gwres a phŵer cyfunedig yn lleol drwy’r fwrdeistref gyfan, wedi lleihau ei allyriadau’n ddirfawr, ac wedi cynyddu ei allu i ddefnyddio ynni a gynhyrchir yn lleol. Mae wedi bod mor llwyddiannus nes bod Ken Livingstone wedi ymgymryd ag ef yn Llundain, gan sefydlu Asiantaeth Newid yn yr Hinsawdd Llundain. Cyfarfûm ag Allan Jones yn ddiweddar a gwnaeth y gwaith y mae’n ei wneud argraff eithriadol o dda arnaf. Yr wyf yn argyhoeddedig y gallai’r gwaith y mae wedi’i wneud gael ei gyflwyno’n genedlaethol ac yn lleol yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn gofyn ichi ymchwilio i’r gwaith hwnnw o ddifrif, gan y gallem, yn anhygoel, leihau ein hallyriadau’n gyflym i ddim, i bob pwrpas.

The First Minister: Obviously, I do not know the scheme that you are referring to in Woking in detail, but the principle is something that I have often discussed with Jane Davidson. Combined heat and power is the only way to get heat conversion efficiencies in electricity generation from the 60 per cent mark, which is the best that you can do with combined-cycle gas turbine technology—80 per cent, if you can find a customer for the heat. The problem is always finding a customer for the heat. We always struggle; we try to act as marriage brokers. If you take the Baglan Energy Park for example, which is a project that is nine years old now, it has been difficult to find customers for the spare heat from the GE combined-cycle gas turbine station, even though that has been open for about six years. There is a new paper mill there, but it wants heat that is at a slightly different temperature, so you cannot do it.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yn amlwg, nid wyf yn gyfarwydd â manylion y cynllun yr ydych yn cyfeirio ato yn Woking, ond mae’r egwyddor yn rhywbeth yr wyf wedi’i drafod yn aml gyda Jane Davidson. Gwres a phŵer cyfunedig yw’r unig ffordd i gynyddu effeithlonrwydd trosi gwres wrth gynhyrchu trydan o 60 y cant—sef y gorau y gellir ei wneud gyda thechnoleg tyrbin nwy cylch cyfunedig—80 y cant, os gallwch ganfod cwsmer ar gyfer y gwres. Y broblem o hyd yw canfod cwsmer ar gyfer y gwres. Yr ydym yn cael trafferth o hyd; yr ydym yn ceisio gweithredu fel broceriaid priodasau. Os cymerwch Barc Ynni Baglan, er enghraifft, sy’n brosiect naw mlwydd oed erbyn hyn, mae wedi bod yn anodd dod o hyd i gwsmeriaid ar gyfer y gwres dros ben o'r orsaf tyrbin nwy cylch cyfunedig sydd gan GE, er bod honno wedi bod ar agor bellach ers rhyw chwe blynedd. Mae melin bapur newydd yno, ond mae ar y felin angen gwres ar dymheredd ychydig yn wahanol, felly ni allwch wneud hynny.

Therefore, you sometimes have to be lucky to find a customer. If you can, it is fantastic for the customers, as well as for the planet, but finding customers for the heat locally, so that you do not get heat loss as a result of the distance to the customer, is difficult. However, we act as marriage brokers—we are keen on CHP wherever it is practicable.

Felly, rhaid ichi weithiau fod yn lwcus i ddod o hyd i gwsmer. Os gallwch wneud hynny, mae'n wych ar gyfer y cwsmeriaid, heb sôn am y blaned, ond mae dod o hyd i gwsmeriaid i'r gwres yn lleol, fel nad ydych yn colli gwres wrth ei gludo dros bellter at y cwsmer, yn anodd. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym yn gweithio fel broceriaid priodasau—yr ydym yn frwd o blaid cyfuno gwres a phŵer lle bynnag y bydd hynny'n ymarferol.

Darren Millar: One of the commendable steps that has been taken by your Government to address climate change, First Minister, has been to lead by example in ensuring that all Welsh Assembly Government buildings, such as the planned offices in Llandudno Junction, meet strict environmental standards. Can you give us an update on this project, and tell us why a turf-cutting ceremony was held onsite last March, prior to the Assembly elections, despite you and your Cabinet colleagues knowing full well that the project had stalled, and that a pause-and-review exercise was announced in February? Was that a cynical attempt to win votes in several marginal north Wales constituencies?

Darren Millar: Un o'r camau clodwiw y mae eich Llywodraeth wedi'i gymryd er mwyn mynd i'r afael â newid yn yr hinsawdd, Brif Weinidog, yw arwain drwy esiampl wrth sicrhau bod holl adeiladau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, megis y swyddfeydd arfaethedig yng Nghyffordd Llandudno, yn bodloni safonau amgylcheddol llym. A allwch roi'r newyddion diweddaraf inni am y prosiect hwn, a dweud wrthym pam y cynhaliwyd seremoni i dorri'r dywarchen gyntaf ar y safle fis Mawrth y llynedd, cyn etholiadau'r Cynulliad, er eich bod chi a'ch cyd-Weinidogion yn y Cabinet yn gwybod yn iawn fod y prosiect wedi stopio, a bod ymarferiad oedi ac adolygu wedi’i gyhoeddi ym mis Chwefror? Ai ymgais sinigaidd oedd hynny i geisio ennill pleidleisiau mewn nifer o etholaethau ymylol yn y gogledd?

The First Minister: I would ask you to withdraw the remark that we knew full well that the project had stalled. I thought that there would be a sting in the tail after you had started off by praising us; you then made an unjustified accusation that, when we had the turf-cutting ceremony, we already knew that the project was going to stall. That is untrue, and I ask you to accept my assurances to that effect, and withdraw the allegation, which is not worthy of you.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddwn yn gofyn ichi dynnu'n ôl y sylw ein bod yn gwybod yn iawn fod y prosiect wedi stopio. Yr oeddwn yn tybio y byddai tro yn y gynffon ar ôl i chi ddechrau arni drwy ein canmol; aethoch yn eich blaen i wneud honiad di-sail ein bod yn gwybod eisoes, pan gynhaliwyd y seremoni i dorri'r dywarchen gyntaf, fod y prosiect am stopio. Mae hynny'n anwir, a gofynnaf ichi dderbyn sicrwydd gennyf ynghylch hynny, a thynnu'n ôl yr honiad, nad yw’n deilwng ohonoch.

We regretted, as much as anyone, having to put the project on hold for a rethink. We still expect that office to be up and running and open in the middle of 2010, and we expect it to go out to tender again for construction in a few months’ time. I believe that an advertisement in the contract supplement of the Official Journal of the European Communities, as is an obligatory first step, will be taken shortly, if it has not already happened.

Yr oeddem yn gresynu, cymaint â neb, fod yn rhaid dod â'r prosiect i ben dros dro er mwyn pwyso a mesur y sefyllfa. Yr ydym yn dal i ddisgwyl y bydd y swyddfa honno ar waith tua chanol 2010, ac yr ydym yn disgwyl y bydd gwahodd ceisiadau i dendro eto ar gyfer y gwaith adeiladu ymhen ychydig fisoedd. Credaf y bydd hysbyseb yn ymddangos cyn bo hir yn atodiad contractau yr Official Journal of the European Communities, sef y cam gorfodol cyntaf, os nad yw hynny eisoes wedi digwydd.

Prisons

Carchardai

Q12 William Graham: Will the First Minister make a statement on discussions held with the UK Government concerning prisons in Wales? OAQ(3)0931(FM)

C12 William Graham: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am drafodaethau a gafwyd gyda Llywodraeth y DU ynghylch carchardai yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0931(FM)

The First Minister: The Minister for Social Justice and Local Government, Brian Gibbons, has spoken and written to the prisons Minister, David Hanson, at the Ministry of Justice on several occasions about prisons in Wales, and prospective prisons in Wales.

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae'r Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol, Brian Gibbons, wedi siarad â'r  Gweinidog dros garchardai, David Hanson, ac wedi ysgrifennu ato yn y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder droeon ynghylch carchardai yng Nghymru, ac ynghylch carchardai arfaethedig yng Nghymru.

William Graham: You will know about the concerns of the residents of Usk regarding the frequent absconding from Prescoed open prison, and the similar concern in Fairwater, Cwmbrân, regarding the possible use of the former police training centre as some form of penal establishment. Can you ensure that the opinions of the electors in both those places are effectively heard in Government?

William Graham: Byddwch yn gwybod am bryderon preswylwyr Brynbuga ynghylch achosion rheolaidd o garcharorion yn dianc o garchar agored Prescoed, a'r pryder tebyg yn Fairwater, Cwmbrân, ynghylch y posibilrwydd y bydd hen ganolfan hyfforddi'r heddlu’n cael ei defnyddio fel rhyw fath o sefydliad cosbi. A allwch sicrhau y bydd barn yr etholwyr yn cael ei chlywed yn effeithiol yn y ddau le hyn?

The First Minister: I am grateful for those comments, and for the way in which you put them. Prescoed has always been an open prison—for the last 30 or 40 years, as far as I am aware—and, from time to time, people will abuse that. It is important to give the right degree of attention to trying to persuade people that absconding is a bad idea and will result in trebling the length of their sentence, and a loss of all the privileges that go with being in an open prison. Some people will still abuse it, but you have to try to minimise that.

Y Prif Weinidog: Diolch yn fawr am y sylwadau hynny, ac am y ffordd y gwnaethoch eu geirio. Mae Prescoed wedi bod yn garchar agored erioed—ers 30 neu 40 mlynedd, hyd y gwn—ac, weithiau, bydd pobl yn camddefnyddio hynny. Mae'n bwysig inni roi'r sylw priodol i geisio perswadio pobl bod dianc yn syniad gwael ac y bydd yn arwain at dreblu hyd eu dedfryd, a byddant yn colli'r holl freintiau a ddaw yn sgîl bod mewn carchar agored. Bydd rhai pobl yn dal i gamddefnyddio'r sefyllfa honno, ond rhaid ichi geisio lleihau hynny gymaint ag sy'n bosibl.

On the siting of a general prison in Wales, we have made our feelings known strongly—as have the Secretary of State for Wales, in his role as the constituency Member of Parliament, before he became a member of the Cabinet, and Lynne Neagle, the Assembly Member for Torfaen—that this would not be a good site. We have said that there are many other better sites, especially in the Heads of the Valleys areas, on which the Ministry of Justice should concentrate its search in south Wales. In north Wales, there is a shortlist of sites, on which we expect a decision; exactly when is a matter for David Hanson.

O ran lleoli carchar cyffredinol yng Nghymru, yr ydym wedi cyflwyno ein safbwynt yn gryf iawn—fel y mae Ysgrifennydd Gwladol Cymru, yn rhinwedd y ffaith mai ef yw Aelod Seneddol yr etholaeth, cyn iddo ddod yn aelod o'r Cabinet, a Lynne Neagle, Aelod Cynulliad Tor-faen—na fyddai hwn yn safle da. Yr ydym wedi dadlau bod llawer o safleoedd gwell eraill, yn enwedig yn ardaloedd Blaenau'r Cymoedd, a dyna lle y dylai'r Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder ganolbwyntio’i sylw wrth chwilio yn y de. Yn y gogledd, mae rhestr fer o safleoedd, ac yr ydym yn disgwyl penderfyniad arnynt; David Hanson fydd yn penderfynu pryd yn union y bydd hynny.

Benefits

Budd-daliadau

Q13 Michael German: Will the First Minister make a statement on what the Welsh Assembly Government is doing to ensure that people are aware of the benefits they are entitled to and know how to access them? OAQ(3)0940(FM)

C13 Michael German: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am yr hyn mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod pobl yn ymwybodol o’r budd-daliadau mae ganddynt hawl i’w cael a’u bod yn gwybod sut i gael gafael arnynt? OAQ(3)0940(FM)

The First Minister: Although the benefits system is not a devolved area, we recognise the importance and the potential benefits to Wales, and Welsh citizens, of people receiving all the benefits to which they are entitled. Our financial inclusion strategy will propose further action to help people do so and bring together the work that we are already doing, including the £3 million campaign to increase council tax and housing benefit take-up.

Y Prif Weinidog: Er nad yw'r system fudd-daliadau'n faes sydd wedi'i ddatganoli, yr ydym yn cydnabod mor bwysig ydyw a'r manteision posibl i Gymru, ac i ddinasyddion Cymru, fod pobl yn cael yr holl fudd-daliadau y mae ganddynt hawl i'w cael. Bydd ein strategaeth cynhwysiant ariannol yn cynnig camau pellach i helpu pobl i wneud hynny a thynnu ynghyd y gwaith a wnawn eisoes, gan gynnwys yr ymgyrch gwerth £3 miliwn i gynyddu'r niferoedd sy'n hawlio’u budd-dal tai a budd-dal y dreth gyngor.

2.50 p.m.

 

Michael German: Council tax benefit plays its purpose as a means of ensuring that people on lower incomes pay less council tax. However, the take-up of council tax benefit, compared with other benefits, is low. Are you doing anything to ensure that council tax benefit is more widely available or to consider whether there needs to be a wholesale restructuring of the system?

Michael German: Mae budd-dal y dreth gyngor yn chwarae ei ran fel modd o sicrhau bod pobl ar incwm is yn talu llai o dreth gyngor. Fodd bynnag, mae nifer y bobl sy'n hawlio budd-dal y dreth gyngor, o'i gymharu â budd-daliadau eraill, yn isel. A ydych yn gwneud unrhyw beth i sicrhau bod budd-dal y dreth gyngor ar gael yn ehangach neu a ydych yn ystyried a oes angen ailstrwythuro'r system yn gyfan gwbl?

The First Minister: I have said it on many occasions, both here and in other places, that the low take-up of council tax benefit tends to undermine the integrity of the council tax system. Many single people believe that the single person’s discount is all that they are entitled to when, in fact, it is more than likely that they are entitled to council tax benefit and the single person’s discount. They just do not apply for it. Trying to ensure that it is much more automatic, so that you do not have to apply for it and go through the fear of the means test—many people, especially widows, are fearful of the means test—would be an advantage in terms of ensuring the longevity of the council tax system. People would then realise that there were ways of helping those on fixed incomes to find it affordable rather than unaffordable when council tax is increased. That is important, as is the other area that is of great concern, namely the low take-up of tax credit.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf wedi dweud droeon, yn y fan hon ac mewn lleoedd eraill, fod y niferoedd bach sy'n hawlio budd-dal y dreth gyngor yn dueddol o danseilio integriti system y dreth gyngor. Mae llawer o bobl sengl o'r farn mai'r gostyngiad i unigolyn sengl yw'r unig ostyngiad y mae ganddynt hawl i'w gael, er ei bod yn bur debygol, mewn gwirionedd, y byddai hawl ganddynt i gael budd-dal y dreth gyngor a'r gostyngiad i berson sengl. Nid ydynt yn gwneud cais amdano. Byddai ceisio sicrhau ei fod yn llawer mwy awtomatig, fel nad oes rhaid ichi wneud cais amdano na dioddef y poen meddwl wrth fynd drwy broses y prawf modd—gan fod llawer o bobl, yn enwedig gweddwon, yn poeni am y prawf modd—yn fanteisiol o ran sicrhau hirhoedledd system y dreth gyngor. Yna, byddai pobl yn sylweddoli bod ffyrdd o helpu'r rhai sydd ar incwm sefydlog i fforddio talu'r dreth gyngor pan fydd yn codi yn hytrach na'u bod yn  methu fforddio gwneud hynny. Mae hynny'n bwysig, yn ogystal â'r maes arall sy'n peri cryn bryder, sef y niferoedd bach sy'n cael credyd treth.

Mark Isherwood: As I have mentioned before, last year Citizens Advice saw a 10 per cent increase in client issues in Wales—97,000 of which were benefit-related issues. I recently attended a meeting with a constituent at Jobcentre Plus. You will be aware that the Department for Work and Pensions commissions medical assessments from Atos Origin, a third-party organisation, but we were told that my constituent’s medical records would have been destroyed, because of the time limit, and that Atos Origin would not hold a record of them. However, when we contacted Atos Origin, we were told that it was required to keep electronic information that would allow a copy to be regenerated at a later date. When we informed Jobcentre Plus of that, it said that it had now asked Atos what records it kept. I appreciate that this is not a devolved matter, but if this is happening to constituents who have the active support of Assembly Members, what is happening to the many who are suffering in silence? Will you pursue this issue, because I regard it as a severe and worrying matter that may be going unreported in many other cases?

Mark Isherwood: Fel yr wyf wedi crybwyll o’r blaen, y llynedd gwelodd Cyngor ar Bopeth 10 y cant o gynnydd mewn problemau a godwyd gan gleientiaid yng Nghymru—yr oedd 97,000 o’r rheini’n faterion a oedd yn ymwneud â budd-daliadau. Bûm mewn cyfarfod yn ddiweddar gydag etholwr mewn Canolfan Byd Gwaith. Byddwch yn gwybod bod yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau’n comisiynu asesiadau meddygol gan Atos Origin, sefydliad trydydd parti, ond dywedwyd wrthym y byddai cofnodion meddygol fy etholwr wedi cael eu dinistrio oherwydd y cyfyngiad amser, ac na fyddai Atos Origin yn cadw cofnod ohonynt. Fodd bynnag, ar ôl cysylltu ag Atos Origin, dywedwyd wrthym fod yn rhaid iddo gadw gwybodaeth electronig a fyddai’n caniatáu atgynhyrchu copi yn ddiweddarach. Pan ddywedasom hynny wrth Ganolfan Byd Gwaith, dywedodd ei bod erbyn hyn wedi gofyn i Atos pa gofnodion yr oedd yn eu cadw. Yr wyf yn sylweddoli nad yw hwn yn fater a ddatganolwyd, ond os yw hyn yn digwydd i etholwyr sy’n cael cefnogaeth weithredol Aelodau Cynulliad, beth sy’n digwydd i’r nifer sy’n dioddef yn dawel? A wnewch fynd ar drywydd y mater hwn, oherwydd yr wyf yn meddwl ei fod yn fater difrifol, sy’n peri pryder, a all fod yn digwydd mewn llawer o achosion eraill na wyddys amdanynt?

The First Minister: It would be a common, if not universal, experience of those working in Citizens Advice bureaux or other organisations that come into contact with people with housing and benefit difficulties, to find that almost all of them should be getting an extra £10 or £20 a week from some aspect of the benefits system to which they are entitled. However, because the forms are too complex or because they, like me, are not good at filling in even simple forms, they find it overwhelmingly difficult. Once a person working in a Citizens Advice bureau, or similar organisation, has helped them with the form, the next thing you know is that they have their extra £20 a week. They could not have done that themselves, because the forms are a little daunting. So, part of any financial inclusion strategy—it is very much a part of ours and is supported by £3 million of our money—is ensuring that people get the benefits to which they are entitled and that benefits are advertised to them. We try to ensure that forms are filled in correctly for them and with them by people who work as specialist advisers who do not find form filling daunting, because they have done it many times before.

Y Prif Weinidog: Byddai’n brofiad cyffredin, ac yn brofiad i bawb efallai o’r rhai sy’n gweithio mewn canolfannau Cyngor ar Bopeth neu mewn sefydliadau eraill a ddaw i gyswllt â phobl sydd ag anawsterau’n ymwneud â thai ac â budd-daliadau, eu bod yn canfod y dylai fod bron pob un ohonynt yn cael £10 neu £20 yn ychwanegol yr wythnos yn sgîl rhyw agwedd ar y system fudd-daliadau y mae ganddynt hawl i’w gael. Fodd bynnag, oherwydd bod y ffurflenni’n rhy gymhleth, neu oherwydd nad ydynt, fel finnau, yn rhai da am lenwi ffurflenni syml hyd yn oed, mae’n rhy anodd iddynt. Ar ôl i rywun sy’n gweithio mewn canolfan Cyngor ar Bopeth neu mewn sefydliad tebyg eu helpu gyda’r ffurflen, cyn pen dim maent yn cael eu £20 yn ychwanegol yr wythnos. Ni fyddent wedi gallu gwneud hynny eu hunain, oherwydd bod y ffurflenni’n codi ofn arnynt braidd. Felly, rhan o unrhyw strategaeth cynhwysiant ariannol—ac mae’n rhan fawr o’n hun ni ac fe’i cefnogir gan £3 miliwn o’n harian—yw sicrhau bod pobl yn cael y budd-daliadau y mae ganddynt hawl i’w cael a’u bod yn cael gwybod am fudd-daliadau. Yr ydym yn ceisio sicrhau bod ffurflenni’n cael eu llenwi’n gywir iddyn nhw a chyda nhw gan bobl sy’n gweithio fel cynghorwyr arbenigol nad yw llenwi ffurflenni’n codi ofn arnynt, oherwydd y maent wedi gwneud hynny lawer gwaith o’r blaen.

Y Diwydiant Amaeth

The Agricultural Industry

C14 Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddatganiad am effaith rheoliadau’r UE ar y diwydiant amaeth yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0949(FM)

Q14 Paul Davies: Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact of EU regulations on the Welsh agricultural industry? OAQ(3)0949(FM)

Y Prif Weinidog: Ar 15 Ionawr, cyhoeddodd y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, Elin Jones, adolygiad o fiwrocratiaeth—tâp coch—yn niwydiant amaethyddiaeth Cymru. Mae’r adolygiad hwnnw’n mynd rhagddo, a’r bwriad yw cyflwyno’r gwelliannau cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl.

The First Minister: On 15 January, Elin Jones, the Minister for Rural Affairs announced a review of beaurocracy—red tape—within the Welsh agricultural industry. That review is now under way and it is our intention to introduce improvements as soon as we are able to do so.

Paul Davies: Yr wyf wedi derbyn nifer o gŵynion yn ddiweddar gan ffermwyr sy’n cael trafferth i dderbyn eu taliadau Tir Gofal. Mae’n debyg mai’r rheswm yw bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi gorfod newid ei rheolau er mwyn gweithio o fewn rheoliadau newydd yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Deallaf nad yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi paratoi ar gyfer y rheolau hyn neu nad yw wedi derbyn digon o rybudd er mwyn paratoi ar eu cyfer. O dan yr amgylchiadau hyn, a all y Prif Weinidog ddweud wrthym a oes amser penodol i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd roi rhybudd i’r Cynulliad cyn bod rhai rheolau yn cael eu gweithredu?

Paul Davies: I have received many complaints recently from farmers who are having difficulties receiving their Tir Gofal payments. It seems that the reason is that the Welsh Assembly Government has had to change its rules in order to work within new European Union regulations. I understand that the Welsh Assembly Government has not prepared for these regulations or did not receive sufficient warning in order to prepare for them. Under those circumstances, can the First Minister tell us whether there is a specific timeframe within which the European Union must warn the Assembly that regulations are being implemented?

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr ydym wedi gwneud yn dda iawn o ran y taliad sengl yn ystod y diwrnodau cyntaf lle mae’r ffenestr ar agor, ychydig cyn y Nadolig, ond efallai eich bod yn gywir i gyfeirio at y cymhlethod ac felly’r oedi o ran gwneud taliadau neu sefyllfa lle mae pobl yn ei chanfod yn afresymol o anodd i lenwi’r ffurflenni Tir Gofal. Nid wyf yn siŵr, felly gofynnaf i Elin Jones adolygu’r Cofnod yfory a rhoi ateb penodol i chi ar y cwestiynau yr ydych wedi eu codi.

The First Minister: We did very well with regard to the single payment during the first few days following the opening of the window, just before Christmas, but you may be correct in referring to the complexities and therefore the delay in making payments or a situation where people find it unreasonably difficult to fill in the Tir Gofal forms. I am not certain, but I will ask Elin Jones to review the Record tomorrow and perhaps she could respond to you specifically on the questions that you have asked.

Encouraging Active Citizenship

Annog Pobl Ifanc i fod yn Ddinasyddion Gweithgar

Q15 Janice Gregory: Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Assembly Government’s work to encourage active citizenship among young people? OAQ(3)0954(FM)

C15 Janice Gregory: A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu gwaith Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i annog pobl ifanc i fod yn ddinasyddion gweithgar? OAQ(3)0954(FM)

The First Minister: We have a wide range of policies; we are probably well up there with the most active administrations anywhere in Europe in encouraging young people, through Funky Dragon and other ways of getting young people to realise that democracy and citizenship are relevant to them. I hope that anyone who is over 18 years of age will be taking advantage of participating in democratic elections for the first time on Thursday, if it is their first opportunity to do so. We must embed active citizenship, whether it is before the voting age or immediately after the onset of the voting age. We must get it into the school curriculum and into participation for all services that support young people.   

Y Prif Weinidog: Mae gennym ystod eang o bolisïau; mae’n debygol ein bod yn un o’r gweinyddiaethau mwyaf gweithgar yn Ewrop o ran annog pobl ifanc, drwy’r Ddraig Ffynci a ffyrdd eraill o helpu pobl ifanc i sylweddoli bod democratiaeth a dinasyddiaeth yn berthnasol iddynt. Gobeithiaf y bydd unrhyw un sydd dros 18 oed yn manteisio ar gymryd rhan mewn etholiadau democrataidd am y tro cyntaf ddydd Iau, os mai dyma fydd eu cyfle cyntaf i wneud hynny. Rhaid inni wreiddio bod yn ddinasyddion gweithgar, boed hynny cyn yr oed pleidleisio neu yn syth ar ôl cyrraedd yr oed pleidleisio. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod hynny yng nghwricwlwm yr ysgol ac mewn cyfranogiad ar gyfer pob gwasanaeth sy’n cefnogi pobl ifanc.

Janice Gregory: I am sure that no-one from any political party would disagree with what you are saying. However, the leader of Bridgend County Borough Council, Cheryl Green, told a meeting of the council last month that she would like to urge all Members of the National Assembly to consider including citizenship in the national curriculum. Will you comment on the difficulties in promoting active citizenship when the leader of a local education authority has so little grasp of the curriculum applicable to the schools for which she is responsible?

Janice Gregory: Yr wyf yn siŵr na fyddai neb o ddim un blaid wleidyddol yn anghytuno â’r hyn yr ydych yn ei ddweud. Fodd bynnag, dywedodd arweinydd Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, Cheryl Green, wrth un o gyfarfodydd y cyngor fis diwethaf y byddai’n hoffi annog holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol i ystyried cynnwys dinasyddiaeth yn y cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. A wnewch gyflwyno sylwadau am yr anawsterau o ran hyrwyddo bod yn ddinasyddion gweithgar ac arweinydd awdurdod addysg lleol yn deall cyn lleied am y cwricwlwm sy’n berthnasol i’r ysgolion y mae hi’n gyfrifol amdanynt?

The First Minister: I am not going to get involved in personalised matters in relation to any leader of a local authority. There is a general issue here that we should all be in favour of greater participation, because we know that, throughout the western world, there is a massive fall-off in participation in terms of voting, interest, joining political parties and sometimes even in joining pressure groups, which is sometimes seen as a way of encouraging participation by the young. What I always say to young people on the doorstep who say 'It is nothing to do with me’, is that their first vote is like their first kiss—it seems a bit terrifying before it happens, but you can get a taste for it after that. [Laughter.] You must try to ensure that people realise that just getting in there and voting is really interesting, and that you feel so much prouder of yourself once you have done it, because you have done your bit for democracy.

Y Prif Weinidog: Nid wyf am gymryd rhan mewn materion personol yng nghyswllt dim un arweinydd ar awdurdod lleol. Yn hyn y beth mae pwynt cyffredinol y dylem i gyd fod o blaid mwy o gyfranogiad, oherwydd gwyddom fod cyfranogiad, drwy’r byd gorllewinol, yn dirywio o ran pleidleisio, diddordeb, ymuno â phleidiau gwleidyddol ac weithiau hyd yn oed o ran ymuno â grwpiau ymgyrchu, a welir ambell waith fel ffordd o annog cyfranogiad gan bobl ifanc. Yr hyn y byddaf bob tro’n ei ddweud wrth bobl ifanc ar garreg y drws sy’n dweud 'Nid oes a wnelo’r peth ddim â mi’, yw bod eu pleidlais gyntaf fel eu cusan cyntaf—mae’n ymddangos braidd yn frawychus cyn iddo ddigwydd, ond gallwch gael blas arno ar ôl hynny. [Chwerthin.] Rhaid ichi geisio sicrhau bod pobl yn sylweddoli bod mynd yno a phleidleisio’n ddiddorol, a’ch bod yn teimlo’n falchach o lawer ohonoch eich hun ar ôl i chi wneud hynny, oherwydd yr ydych wedi chwarae eich rhan dros ddemocratiaeth.

David Melding: I dare not follow that metaphor. [Laughter.] It is fair to say that there has been real progress during the past 10 years, and much of it has been instigated by your Government. I could mention school councils, for instance, which are to be applauded. There is much good practice. However, in our analysis and our desire to improve public services, we need to embed young people’s views. If we look at education and training, the experts are the young people receiving the education and training, yet they are not always asked for their opinions. We have a surfeit of inspections and tests, and many things, but we should remember that young people are central to many aspects of public service delivery, and we need to improve the mechanisms by which we encourage their participation, review and development in public services.

 

David Melding: Ni feiddiaf barhau â’r trosiad hwnnw. [Chwerthin.] Mae’n deg dweud bod cynnydd go iawn wedi digwydd yn ystod y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, a’ch Llywodraeth chi sy’n gyfrifol am lawer o hynny. Gallwn sôn am gynghorau ysgolion, er enghraifft, sydd i’w canmol. Ceir llawer o arferion da. Fodd bynnag, yn ein dadansoddiad a’n dymuniad i wella gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, mae angen inni wreiddio barn pobl ifanc. Os edrychwn ar addysg ac ar hyfforddiant, yr arbenigwyr yw’r bobl ifanc sy’n cael yr addysg a’r hyfforddiant, er hynny ni ofynnir iddynt am eu barn bob tro. Mae gennym ormod o arolygiadau a phrofion, a llawer o bethau, ond dylem gofio bod pobl ifanc yn ganolog o ran agweddau lu ar gyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ac mae angen inni wella’r mecanweithiau a ddefnyddir i annog eu cyfranogiad, eu hadolygiad a’u datblygiad mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

The First Minister: I commend school councils, for practical rather than theoretical reasons. Any of us who have met a school council when they visit the Assembly—and sometimes you are talking about kids as young as seven or eight years old—will know that the quality of the questions that they throw at you is absolutely mind-boggling and staggeringly mature. Why is it so? It is because of their experience of being on a school council—they just seem to develop as kids. They develop as very young citizens with a really good grasp; discussing the fundamental causes of climate change with eight or nine-year-olds is quite astonishing. That would not happen if they had not had that experience to bring them to a level of articulation where they do not feel inhibited about asking questions about climate change to Ministers or the First Minister, or whoever. It is about the experience of doing it, and of developing by doing it, and school councils have been a great advance, and anyone who dismisses them has not had any involvement with them.

   

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn canmol cynghorau ysgolion, am resymau ymarferol yn hytrach na damcaniaethol. Bydd unrhyw un ohonom sydd wedi cwrdd â chyngor ysgol pan ddônt i ymweld â’r Cynulliad—ac weithiau yr ydych yn sôn am blant mor ifanc â saith neu wyth mlwydd oed—yn gwybod bod ansawdd y cwestiynau a ofynnant yn ysgubol ac yn arbennig o aeddfed. Pam felly? Oherwydd eu profiad ar gyngor yr ysgol—ymddengys eu bod yn datblygu fel plant. Maent yn datblygu fel dinasyddion ifanc iawn sydd â chrap da iawn ar bethau; mae trafod achosion sylfaenol newid yn yr hinsawdd gyda phlant wyth neu naw mlwydd oed yn eithaf syfrdanol. Ni fyddai hynny’n digwydd heb y profiad hwnnw i beri iddynt allu eu mynegi eu hunain mor dda fel nad ydynt yn teimlo’n swil ynghylch holi Gweinidogion neu’r Prif Weinidog, neu pwy bynnag y bo, am newid yn yr hinsawdd. Mae a wnelo â’r profiad o wneud hynny, ac o ddatblygu drwy wneud hynny, ac mae cynghorau ysgolion wedi bod yn gam mawr ymlaen, ac nid yw’r sawl sy’n eu diystyru wedi ymwneud dim â hwy.

3.00 p.m.

 

Jeff Cuthbert: Building on that last point, First Minister, together with Jane Hutt, the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills, I was pleased to attend Cwmaber Junior School in Abertridwr earlier today to recognise the school council’s achievements in winning £10,000 to go towards facilities for the school. I join you in applauding the work of school councils, in primary and secondary schools, as they are an excellent means of encouraging good citizenship. Do you also support youth councils, such as that in Caerphilly, which not that long ago organised a 'I’m a Councillor, Get Me Out of Here’ quiz, which helped to explain the work of local elected representatives to young people, and will, hopefully, encourage them to become councillors in years to come?

Jeff Cuthbert: Gan adeiladu ar y pwynt diwethaf hwnnw, Brif Weinidog, gyda Jane Hutt, y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau, yr oeddwn yn falch o gael mynd i Ysgol Iau Cwmaber yn Abertridwr yn gynharach heddiw i gydnabod camp cyngor yr ysgol o ran ennill £10,000 i’w roi at gyfleusterau i’r ysgol. Ymunaf â chi’n awr i ganmol gwaith cynghorau ysgolion, mewn ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd, gan eu bod yn fodd rhagorol i hyrwyddo dinasyddiaeth dda. A ydych hefyd yn cymeradwyo cynghorau ieuenctid, fel yr un yng Nghaerffili, a drefnodd gwis 'I’m a Councillor, Get Me Out of Here’ yn eithaf diweddar, a fu o gymorth i esbonio gwaith cynrychiolwyr etholedig lleol i bobl ifanc, ac a fydd, yr wyf yn gobeithio, yn eu cymell i ddod yn gynghorwyr yn y blynyddoedd i ddod?

The First Minister: I agree with your comments, and I commend the school on winning the £10,000 prize for the quality of its pupil participation in citizenship-type programmes. The key issue is that we know that one of the problems for those aged 18 to 25 is that young people have become quite cynical by the time they reach that age group. If you catch them before they have become cynical and get them active then, they realise the value of participation and start dreaming about being a councillor, an Assembly Member, a Member of Parliament, or a Member of the European Parliament. They realise that it is not boring and could be a way of developing better services for their age group. Young people often complain about being bored and having nothing to do, but when you propose something, they say that that is even more boring than having nothing to do. People at the age of 18 are cynical, but if you catch them when they are younger they can get engaged and then they will not find the whole business of democracy boring and not for them.

Y Prif Weinidog: Yr wyf yn cytuno â’ch sylwadau, a chanmolaf yr ysgol am ennill y wobr o £10,000 oherwydd ansawdd y cyfranogi gan ei disgyblion mewn rhaglenni sy’n ymwneud â dinasyddiaeth. Y mater allweddol yw ein bod yn gwybod mai un o’r anawsterau i’r rhai rhwng 18 a 25 oed yw bod pobl ifanc wedi mynd yn eithaf sinigaidd erbyn iddynt gyrraedd y grŵp oedran hwnnw. Os daliwch hwy cyn iddynt fynd yn sinigaidd a pheri iddynt gymryd rhan bryd hynny, byddant yn sylweddoli’r gwerth sydd mewn cymryd rhan ac yn dechrau dyheu am fod yn gynghorydd, yn Aelod Cynulliad, yn Aelod Seneddol, neu’n Aelod o Senedd Ewrop. Sylweddolant nad yw’n beth diflas ac y gallai fod yn fodd i ddatblygu gwell gwasanaethau i’r rhai yn eu grŵp oedran. Bydd pobl ifanc yn cwyno’n aml eu bod wedi diflasu ac nad oes ganddynt ddim i’w wneud, ond pan gynigiwch rywbeth, dywedant fod hynny’n fwy diflas hyd yn oed na bod heb ddim i’w wneud. Mae pobl 18 oed yn sinigaidd, ond os cewch afael arnynt pan fyddant yn iau, gallant gymryd rhan ac wedyn byddant yn canfod nad yw democratiaeth yn beth diflas drwyddo draw sydd heb fod at eu dant.

Y Llywydd: Diolch i’r Prif Weinidog am ateb yr holl gwestiynau a gyflwynwyd ar gyfer y cyfarfod heddiw.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the First Minister for answering all the questions that were tabled for today’s meeting.

Datganiad a Chyhoeddiad Busnes
Business Statement and Announcement

Y Cofnod

The Counsel General and Leader of the House (Carwyn Jones): I have no changes to report to this week’s planned Government business. Business for the next three weeks is as set out in the draft business statement and announcement, which can be found among the agenda papers that are available to Members electronically.

Y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ac Arweinydd y Tŷ (Carwyn Jones): Nid oes gennyf ddim newidiadau i’w hadrodd ym musnes arfaethedig y Llywodraeth yr wythnos hon. Mae’r busnes ar gyfer y tair wythnos nesaf fel y mae wedi’i nodi yn y datganiad a chyhoeddiad busnes drafft, sydd i’w weld ym mhapurau’r agenda sydd ar gael i’r Aelodau’n electronig.

Mark Isherwood: I have one issue to raise, which I have referred to previously. I hope that, on this occasion, you will agree that it merits a Government statement. The Public and Commercial Services Union has written again to all Members regarding the closure programme for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. It states that the previous Paymaster General committed her department to a full and detailed consultation with the Assembly Government to explore alternatives, such as the co-location of Government buildings. That commitment was repeated by the current Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Jane Kennedy. It states that it is aware that the level of consultation by HMRC with the Assembly Government on the Cardiff and Swansea reviews was, to say the least, cursory, and it calls on the Assembly Government to lobby Treasury Ministers strongly to ensure that the next round of reviews contains a far more serious level of consultation. Given your Government’s assurances to the Assembly that strong representations were being made on this matter, I feel that we deserve a Government statement to appraise us of the actual situation and to assure us that strong representations will be made as this process moves to other parts of Wales.

Mark Isherwood: Mae gennyf un mater i’w godi, yr wyf wedi cyfeirio ato o’r blaen. Gobeithiaf y byddwch yn cytuno, y tro hwn, ei fod yn teilyngu datganiad gan y Llywodraeth. Mae Undeb y Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus a Masnachol wedi ysgrifennu eto at yr holl Aelodau ynghylch y rhaglen gau ar gyfer Cyllid a Thollau Ei Mawrhydi. Mae’n datgan bod y Tâl-feistr Cyffredinol blaenorol wedi ymrwymo y byddai ei hadran yn ymgynghori’n drylwyr ac yn fanwl â Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i ymchwilio i ddewisiadau eraill, megis cydleoli adeiladau’r Llywodraeth. Ailadroddwyd yr ymrwymiad hwnnw gan Ysgrifennydd Ariannol presennol y Trysorlys, Jane Kennedy. Mae’n datgan ei fod yn ymwybodol bod lefel yr ymgynghori gan HMRC â Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ynghylch yr adolygiadau o ran Caerdydd ac Abertawe’n arwynebol, a dweud y lleiaf, ac mae’n galw ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i lobïo Gweinidogion y Trysorlys yn daer i sicrhau bod y cylch nesaf o adolygiadau’n cynnwys llawer mwy o ymgynghori. O gofio’r sicrwydd y mae eich Llywodraeth wedi’i roi i’r Cynulliad fod sylwadau cryf yn cael eu cyflwyno ar y mater hwn, teimlaf ein bod yn haeddu cael datganiad gan y Llywodraeth i roi gwybod inni am y sefyllfa wirioneddol ac i’n sicrhau y cyflwynir sylwadau cryf wrth i’r broses hon symud i rannau eraill o Gymru.

Carwyn Jones: Representations will be made on behalf of those whose jobs are in danger, although this is a non-devolved area. Where there are matters to report to the Assembly, including the response given by the Assembly Government to the Westminster Government, that information will be made available at the appropriate time.

Carwyn Jones: Cyflwynir sylwadau ar ran y rhai y mae eu swyddi mewn perygl, er nad yw’r maes hwn wedi’i ddatganoli. Pan fydd materion i’w hadrodd i’r Cynulliad, gan gynnwys yr ymateb a roddir gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i Lywodraeth San Steffan, darperir yr wybodaeth honno ar yr adeg briodol.

Lesley Griffiths: In a recent report by the corporate services company Jordans, it was revealed that over 12,000 new companies were formed in Wales over the past 12 months, which is an increase of 5 per cent on the previous year. Also, last week, the latest CBI Welsh industrial trends survey showed that Welsh manufacturers are bucking the trend elsewhere in the UK and are showing positive growth in orders and output, combined with healthy export prospects predicted for the next quarter. Do you agree that despite dire predictions that the Welsh economy is about to disappear down the plughole, it remains in good shape? Will you therefore find time for a debate on the burgeoning success of the Welsh economy?

Lesley Griffiths: Mewn adroddiad yn ddiweddar gan y cwmni gwasanaethau corfforaethol Jordans, datgelwyd bod dros 12,000 o gwmnïau newydd wedi’u ffurfio yng Nghymru dros y 12 mis diwethaf, ac mae hynny 5 y cant yn uwch nag yn y flwyddyn flaenorol. Hefyd, yr wythnos diwethaf, dangosodd yr arolwg diweddaraf o dueddiadau diwydiannol yng Nghymru gan y CBI fod gweithgynhyrchwyr yng Nghymru yn mynd yn groes i’r duedd mewn mannau eraill yn y DU a’u bod yn dangos cynnydd pendant o ran archebion a chynnyrch, ynghyd â rhagolygon da ar gyfer allforion yn y chwarter nesaf. A ydych yn cytuno, er gwaethaf y darogan arswydus bod economi Cymru ar fin mynd i ddifancoll, ei bod yn dal mewn cyflwr da? A wnewch neilltuo amser, felly, ar gyfer dadl ar lwyddiant cynyddol economi Cymru?

Carwyn Jones: The fact that the Welsh economy is burgeoning is obvious to most of us in the Assembly. We hear that in the answers given by Ministers to questions, and we hear it out there among the public. Many of us will remember the disaster years of the early 1990s and the shambles of 15 per cent interest rates, and the fact that there were so many repossessions and so many people were thrown out onto the streets. The situation is much better now. The fact that so many companies are being formed and that so many are exporting shows that the Welsh economy is more diverse, broad and stronger than before.

Carwyn Jones: Mae’r ffaith bod economi Cymru ar gynnydd yn amlwg i’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn y Cynulliad. Clywn hynny yn yr atebion y mae Gweinidogion yn eu rhoi i gwestiynau, ac fe’i clywn ymysg y cyhoedd. Bydd llawer ohonom yn cofio blynyddoedd trychinebus yr 1990au a’r llanastr oherwydd cyfraddau llog o 15 y cant, a’r ffaith bod cynifer o dai’n cael eu hadfeddiannu a chynifer o bobl yn cael eu troi allan i’r stryd. Mae’r sefyllfa’n well o lawer yn awr. Mae’r ffaith bod cynifer o gwmnïau’n cael eu ffurfio a bod cynifer ohonynt yn allforio’n dangos bod economi Cymru yn fwy amrywiol, yn ehangach, ac yn gryfach nag o’r blaen.

Alun Cairns: The business managers of all parties have been advised that the Minister for Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills will make a written and an oral statement on the foundation phase. I am sure that in view of the crisis in funding, according to some headteachers, and concerns in this respect, any new information will be more than welcome. However, can you tell me why that was not discussed in the Business Committee this morning, and why—

Alun Cairns: Mae rheolwyr busnes yr holl bleidiau wedi’u hysbysu y bydd y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau’n gwneud datganiad ysgrifenedig a datganiad llafar am y cyfnod sylfaen. Yr wyf yn siŵr, ac ystyried yr argyfwng sy’n bod o ran cyllid, yn ôl rhai penaethiaid ysgol, a’r pryderon ynghylch hyn, y bydd croeso mawr i unrhyw wybodaeth newydd. Fodd bynnag, a allwch ddweud wrthyf pam na thrafodwyd hynny yn y Pwyllgor Busnes y bore yma, a pham—

The Presiding Officer: Order.

Y Llywydd: Trefn.

Alun Cairns: I apologise, and I withdraw that element of my question, Llywydd.

Alun Cairns: Ymddiheuraf, a thynnaf y rhan honno o’m cwestiwn yn ôl, Lywydd.

The Presiding Officer: I should think so.

Y Llywydd: Byddwn yn meddwl, wir.

Alun Cairns: Why has this been brought forward with such urgency and with no notice given to any other Minister concerned?

Alun Cairns: Pam y mae hyn wedi’i roi gerbron gyda’r fath frys a heb hysbysu dim un Gweinidog arall perthnasol?

Carwyn Jones: A written statement will be issued this afternoon. I am told by my colleague Jane Hutt that this is an issue on which Members have expressed their views, and it is important that views expressed by the party opposite are corrected.

Carwyn Jones: Cyhoeddir datganiad ysgrifenedig y prynhawn yma. Mae fy nghyd-Weinidog Jane Hutt yn dweud wrthyf fod hwn yn fater y mae Aelodau wedi mynegi barn amdano, ac mae’n bwysig cywiro barn a fynegir gan y blaid gyferbyn.

Bethan Jenkins: Er mwyn y cofnod, er eu bod wedi gadael erbyn hyn, yr oedd disgyblion o Goleg Stonyhurst yn Lloegr yma yn gynharach sy’n astudio datganoli. Yr wyf am eu croesawu i’r Cynulliad.

Bethan Jenkins: For the Record, although they have left by now, there were pupils from Stonyhurst College in England here earlier studying devolution. I would like to welcome them to the Assembly.

Mae’r Llywodraeth yn San Steffan eto wedi gohirio rhyddhau data ar dai ag incwm yn is na’r arfer o fis Mai i fis Mehefin. A allwch dynnu’n consýrn am hynny i sylw Gweinidogion yn San Steffan oherwydd y goblygiadau posibl na chyrhaeddir targedau tlodi plant, sy’n gysylltiedig â hyn?

The Westminster Government, once again, delayed in releasing data on houses with lower than average income from May to June. Could you bring that concern to the attention of Ministers in Westminster due to the possible implications connected to this,  that child poverty targets may not be reached.

Carwyn Jones: Mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un a Llywodraeth San Steffan am atal tlodi plant yn y dyfodol. Mae rhesymau am yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd o ran targedau’r Deyrnas Unedig, a’r gobaith yw y bydd unrhyw ffigurau sydd gan Lywodraeth San Steffan yn cael eu rhyddhau cyn gynted â phosibl. Rhaid dweud unwaith eto ein bod ni i gyd yr ochr hon i’r Siambr am sicrhau bod llai o blant yn byw mewn tlodi yn y dyfodol.

Carwyn Jones: The One Wales Government and the Westminster Government wish to prevent child poverty in the future. There are reasons behind what has happened with regard to the United Kingdom targets and it is hoped that any figures which the Westminster Government has will be released as soon as possible. It must be stated once again that all of us on this side of the Chamber want to ensure that less children live in poverty in the future.

Kirsty Williams: I welcome the hasty inclusion of a statement on the foundation phase next week. I am sure that those in the teaching profession look forward with interest to hearing whether the Minister intends in that statement to give us clarity about the funding of the foundation phase given the news that initial estimates of costs showed that the current budget lines available are insufficient. Staff in Pembrokeshire, Neath Port Talbot and other areas where pilot schemes have been run are being sacked by their schools because of a lack of funding from your Government.

Kirsty Williams: Croesawaf y camau brys i gynnwys datganiad am y cyfnod sylfaen yr wythnos nesaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd y rhai yn y proffesiwn addysgu’n edrych ymlaen gyda diddordeb at glywed a yw’r Gweinidog yn bwriadu rhoi eglurhad inni yn y datganiad hwnnw ynghylch ariannu’r cyfnod sylfaen o gofio’r newydd bod yr amcangyfrifon cyntaf o’r costau’n dangos bod y llinellau yn y gyllideb sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd yn annigonol. Mae staff yn sir Benfro, Castell-nedd Port Talbot ac ardaloedd eraill lle y mae cynlluniau peilot wedi’u cynnal yn cael eu diswyddo gan eu hysgolion oherwydd prinder cyllid gan eich Llywodraeth.

I note that you attach great importance to the foundation phase, because you have made time available for a statement, yet last week, you said that there was no time to discuss either investment in further education or the funding gap in higher education. You suggested that it was our responsibility as opposition Members to raise those subjects. May I assist you? I note that you have a debate scheduled on the annual report of Estyn, which I understand was published several months ago. I am sure that staff at Estyn, having waited as long as they have for the debate on the report, would not mind waiting an extra week to allow time for us to discuss the underfunding of the FE and the HE sectors in Wales.

Sylwaf eich bod yn rhoi pwys mawr ar y cyfnod sylfaen, gan eich bod wedi neilltuo amser ar gyfer datganiad, ac eto, yr wythnos diwethaf, dywedasoch nad oedd amser ar gael i drafod buddsoddi mewn addysg bellach na’r bwlch cyllido mewn addysg uwch. Awgrymasoch mai ein cyfrifoldeb ni fel Aelodau’r gwrthbleidiau  yw codi’r pynciau hynny. A gaf eich helpu? Sylwaf eich bod wedi trefnu dadl ar adroddiad blynyddol Estyn, a gyhoeddwyd rai misoedd yn ôl, yn ôl a ddeallaf. Yr wyf yn siŵr na fyddai gwahaniaeth gan staff Estyn aros un wythnos eto, a hwythau wedi aros cyhyd am y ddadl ar yr adroddiad, er mwyn caniatáu amser inni drafod tanariannu’r sectorau addysg bellach ac addysg uwch yng Nghymru.

Carwyn Jones: Kirsty appears not to have heard what I said, which was that a written statement will be released this afternoon. To my knowledge, Plenary time does not have to be found for a written statement to be produced. It is a matter for local education authorities as to how they fund their schools, and if there are education authorities run by opposition parties that are not funding their schools properly, then that is a matter for the electors on Thursday to find out and express their views accordingly.

Carwyn Jones: Mae’n ymddangos nad yw Kirsty wedi clywed yr hyn a ddywedais, sef y bydd datganiad ysgrifenedig yn cael ei gyhoeddi y prynhawn yma. Hyd y gwn, nid oes rhaid cael amser yn y Cyfarfod Llawn i gyflwyno datganiad ysgrifenedig. Mater i awdurdodau addysg lleol yw sut y maent yn ariannu eu hysgolion, ac os oes awdurdodau addysg sy’n cael eu rhedeg gan wrthbleidiau nad ydynt yn ariannu eu hysgolion yn briodol, mae hynny’n fater i’r etholwyr ddydd Iau ei ddarganfod a mynegi eu barn yn unol â hynny.

3.10 p.m.

 

Dadl Cyfnod 1 ar y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 23.24
Stage 1 Standing Order No. 23.24 Debate on the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure

Y Cofnod

Y Llywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw William Graham.

The Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of William Graham.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Cynigiaf fod

The Deputy Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones): I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.24:

the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.24:

yn cytuno i egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru). (NDM3920)

agrees to the general principles of the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure.

(NDM3920)

Diolch am y cyfle i agor y drafodaeth ar egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru), a osodwyd ar 15 Ebrill eleni. Bydd Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ymwybodol mai hwn yw un o’r Mesurau cyntaf a gyflwynir gan ddefnyddio’r pwerau deddfwriaethol ehangach a gawsom yn ddiweddar. Wrth gwrs, y mae’n bodloni’r ymrwymiad sydd gennym fel Llywodraeth, ac a gynhwyswyd yn rhaglen 'Cymru’n Un’, i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth i wella cludiant i ysgolion.

I am grateful for the opportunity to open the debate on the general principles of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure, which was laid on 15 April this year. Assembly Members will know that this is one of the first Measures to be presented using the wider legislative powers that we recently gained. Of course, it meets our commitment as a Government, which was included in the 'One Wales’ programme, to introduce legislation to improve school transport.

I ddysgwyr, mae’n cynnig mwy o ddiogelwch a chynaliadwyedd ac mae hefyd yn sail i gael mynediad at addysg a hyfforddiant cyfrwng Cymraeg, sydd mor ddibynnol ar gludiant i ysgolion. Bydd yr Aelodau sydd yn y Siambr eisoes yn gyfarwydd â chynnwys y Mesur yn fras, yn dilyn y broses ymgynghorol a’r datganiad ysgrifenedig a gyhoeddais yn ddiweddar, yn ymateb i adroddiad y pwyllgor. Yr ydym i gyd yn cydnabod y gall trefniadau cludiant gael effaith bwysig ar allu dysgwyr i gael addysg. Yn unol â’n hagwedd gyffredinol at addysg a hyfforddiant, mae’r Mesur hwn yn canolbwyntio’n llwyr ar ddysgwyr.

For learners, it offers greater safety and sustainability, and also underpins access to Welsh-medium education and training, which is especially dependent on school transport. The broad content of the Measure will already be familiar to Members who are in the Chamber, following the consultative process and the written statement that I issued recently. We all recognise that transport arrangements can have an important effect on learners’ access to education. In line with our general approach to education and training, this Measure is thoroughly learner focused.

Yr wyf yn cydnabod efallai nad yw’r drafft yn arbennig o hawdd i’w ddeall, ond efallai fod hynny’n anorfod oherwydd ei fod yn ymdrin â manylion dyletswyddau Gweinidogion, awdurdodau lleol ac ysgolion. Fodd bynnag, mae’r nod yn ddigon clir. Nid yn unig yr ydym yn gwneud y gyfraith yn glir, lle yr oedd gynt braidd yn annelwig, ond hefyd yr ydym yn cryfhau hawliau dysgwyr. Mae’r Mesur yn parhau i seilio cludiant di-dâl ar y meini prawf oed a phellter. Bydd plant dros wyth oed mewn ysgolion cynradd yng Nghymru yn gymwys i gael cludiant am ddim os ydynt yn byw ddwy filltir neu ragor o’r ysgol. Ar hyn o bryd, tair milltir yw’r trothwy.

I acknowledge that the draft may be somewhat prosaic, but that may be unavoidable as it deals with the details of duties placed on Ministers, local authorities and schools. However, the underlying aim is clear. Not only do we clarify the law where it was previously somewhat vague, but we also strengthen the rights of learners. The Measure continues to base free transport on age and distance criteria. Children over eight years of age in primary education in Wales will be eligible for free transport if they live two miles or more from the school. Currently, the threshold is three miles.

Yr wyf yn credu’n gryf fod gan ein pobl ifanc yr hawl i deithio’n ddiogel; mae ymddygiad gwael wrth deithio i’r ysgol ac adref yn hynod o beryglus a gall y canlyniadau fod yn drasig. Felly, mae un o rannau allweddol y Mesur yn darparu’r fframwaith i wella diogelwch drwy fynd i’r afael ag ymddygiad annerbyniol. Os oes gan ddysgwyr anghenion ychwanegol, mae ganddynt hawl i ddisgwyl i’r rheini hefyd gael eu hystyried. Felly, mae’n ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol dalu sylw i anabledd ac anawsterau dysgu wrth asesu anghenion teithio ac wrth wneud trefniadau teithio.

I strongly believe that our young people are entitled to safe travel; poor behaviour while travelling to and from school is extremely dangerous and can have tragic consequences. Therefore, one key part of the Measure provides the framework to improve safety by tackling unacceptable behaviour. Learners with additional needs are entitled to have those taken into account. Local authorities are therefore required to have regard to disability and learning difficulties when assessing travel needs and making travel arrangements.

Yr wyf yn siŵr ein bod i gyd yn falch fod ein pobl ifanc yn fwy ymwybodol o’r amgylchedd na’r cenedlaethau blaenorol. Mae’r Mesur yn ymateb i hynny drwy roi dyletswydd ar awdurdodau lleol a Gweinidogion i hyrwyddo dulliau cynaliadwy o deithio i’r ysgol. Un o’r camau ymarferol y mae’r Mesur yn ei hwyluso yw lleihau tagfeydd drwy newid amser dechrau a gorffen yr ysgolion.

I am sure that we are all pleased that our young people are more environmentally conscious than previous generations. The Measure responds by placing a duty on local authorities and Ministers to promote sustainable modes of travelling to school. One practical step that is facilitated by the Measure is to reduce congestion by making changes in school start and finish times.

Hoffwn ddiolch i bob un sydd wedi cymryd cymaint o ddiddordeb yn ein cynigion ac sydd wedi cyflwyno sylwadau hynod o adeiladol. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i bob un sydd wedi ymateb i’r cynigion yr ymgynghorwyd arnynt fis Mehefin diwethaf ac i’r Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, dan gadeiryddiaeth Gareth Jones, a fu’n adolygu’r cynigion ac a adroddodd yn ôl arnynt ym mis Tachwedd.

I wish to thank all those who have taken such an interest in our proposals and put forward extremely constructive comments. I am grateful to everyone who responded to the proposals that were published for consultation last June, and to the Enterprise and Learning Committee, under the chairmanship of Gareth Jones, which reviewed the proposals and reported in November.

I would also like to take this opportunity to pay a special tribute to the parents of 12-year-old Stuart Cunningham-Jones. Their response to an unbelievably tragic loss, their concern for other children and other parents, has played a major role in ensuring the priority that we have attached to bringing forward this Measure.

Hoffwn achub y cyfle hwn hefyd i roi teyrnged arbennig i rieni Stuart Cunningham-Jones a oedd yn 12 mlwydd oed. Mae eu hymateb i’w colled anhygoel o drist, a’u pryder dros blant eraill a’u rhieni, wedi bod yn bwysig iawn o ran sicrhau’r flaenoriaeth yr ydym wedi’i rhoi i gyflwyno’r Mesur hwn.

In the time available, I need to be selective in talking about the several changes that I have made in response to the consultation. The original proposal was for local authorities to make their own travel behaviour codes, and to apply them only to learners using local-authority-arranged travel services. It was pointed out that that could involve different treatment of two learners on the same bus, where one paid his or her own fare and the other had the fare paid by the authority. Others were concerned that codes would vary across Wales in terms of standards and sanctions. I have therefore decided to introduce a consistent approach over the whole of Wales. Ministers will now be required to draw up a behaviour code that applies to all travel connected with those learning who are under the age of 19, whether or not those arrangements have been made by the local authority. This includes travel during the day.

Yn yr amser sydd ar gael, mae angen imi fod yn ddetholus wrth sôn am y newidiadau niferus yr wyf wedi’u gwneud mewn ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad. Y cynnig gwreiddiol oedd y dylai awdurdodau lleol wneud eu codau ymddygiad wrth deithio eu hunain, a’u cymhwyso at ddysgwyr sy’n defnyddio gwasanaethau teithio a drefnir gan awdurdodau lleol yn unig. Tynnwyd sylw at y ffaith y gallai hynny olygu trin dau ddysgwr ar yr un bws yn wahanol, gydag un yn talu am docyn drosto’i hun a’r awdurdod yn talu dros y llall. Yr oedd eraill yn poeni y byddai codau’n amrywio ledled Cymru o ran safonau a sancsiynau. Oherwydd hynny, yr wyf wedi penderfynu cyflwyno dull cyson o weithredu ledled Cymru. Bydd yn ofynnol yn awr i Weinidogion lunio cod ymddygiad sy’n berthnasol i’r holl deithio sy’n gysylltiedig â dysgwyr sy’n iau na 19 oed, pa un a wnaethpwyd y trefniadau hynny gan yr awdurdod lleol ai peidio. Mae hyn yn cynnwys teithio yn ystod y dydd.

It will apply to those walking, cycling, using private transport or otherwise not benefiting from travel arrangements made by the local authority. The code will be part of a school’s general behaviour policy and compliance with it will be compulsory for school pupils.

Bydd yn berthnasol i’r rhai sy’n cerdded, yn beicio, yn defnyddio trafnidiaeth breifat neu i’r sawl nad yw’n manteisio fel arall ar drefniadau teithio a wneir gan yr awdurdod lleol. Bydd y cod yn rhan o bolisi ymddygiad cyffredinol yr ysgol a bydd yn orfodol i ddisgyblion ysgol gydymffurfio ag ef.

Turning to enforcement, the Measure empowers local authorities, subject to conditions, to withdraw travel arrangements for specified periods if they are satisfied that a learner has failed to comply with the travel behaviour code. In other cases, enforcement action will rest with the headteacher. Section 13 places a duty on headteachers to determine disciplinary measures that require pupils to comply with the travel behaviour code made by Welsh Ministers. This means that even school pupils not using local authority transport can be subject to disciplinary action for failing to comply with the code.

A throi at sut y bydd hyn yn cael ei orfodi, mae’r Mesur yn grymuso awdurdodau lleol, dan amodau, i dynnu trefniadau teithio’n ôl am gyfnodau penodedig os ydynt yn sicr nad yw dysgwr wedi cydymffurfio â’r cod ymddygiad wrth deithio. Dan amgylchiadau eraill, y pennaeth a fydd yn gyfrifol am gamau gorfodi. Mae adran 13 yn ei gwneud yn ddyletswydd ar benaethiaid bennu’r mesurau disgyblu sy’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i ddisgyblion gydymffurfio â’r cod ymddygiad wrth deithio a luniwyd gan Weinidogion Cymru. Mae hyn yn golygu y gellir disgyblu hyd yn oed disgyblion ysgol nad ydynt yn defnyddio trafnidiaeth awdurdod lleol am nad ydynt yn cydymffurfio â’r cod.

Another change is the requirement for local authorities and Welsh Ministers to promote access to Welsh-medium education and training when undertaking their functions under the Measure. This complements existing action, under councils’ Welsh-medium education schemes, and will help maintain the provision of transport that has evolved in response to local needs and opportunities.  

Newid arall yw bod gofyn i awdurdodau lleol a Gweinidogion Cymru hyrwyddo mynediad at addysg a hyfforddiant cyfrwng Cymraeg wrth ymgymryd â’u swyddogaethau dan y Mesur. Mae hyn yn ategu’r camau sy’n bodoli eisoes, dan gynlluniau addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg cynghorau, a bydd yn gymorth i gynnal y ddarpariaeth drafnidiaeth sydd wedi datblygu i ymateb i anghenion a chyfleoedd lleol.

I have also introduced a number of explicit references to vulnerable young people—referred to as 'looked after’ children, and 'former looked after’ children.  For example, it may be vital for looked-after children to stay in touch with siblings or classmates in a particular area, even if they have moved. Local authorities must now have regard to these issues in assessing learner travel needs. If they would otherwise qualify under the age and distance criteria, the local authority must provide free transport, even if the school is not the nearest otherwise suitable school. The Measure also clarifies responsibility for travel costs for a looked-after child where travel arrangements are made in another authority’s area.

Yr wyf hefyd wedi cyflwyno nifer o gyfeiriadau penodol at bobl ifanc sy’n agored i niwed—a elwir yn blant 'sy’n derbyn gofal’ ac yn blant 'sydd wedi derbyn gofal yn y gorffennol’. Er enghraifft, gall fod yn hollbwysig i blant sy’n derbyn gofal gadw mewn cysylltiad â brodyr neu chwiorydd neu gyd-ddisgyblion mewn ardal benodol, hyd yn oed os ydynt wedi symud. Rhaid i awdurdodau lleol yn awr roi sylw i’r materion hyn wrth asesu anghenion teithio dysgwyr. Petaent yn gymwys fel arall dan y meini prawf o ran oedran a phellter, rhaid i’r awdurdod lleol ddarparu trafnidiaeth am ddim, hyd yn oed os nad yr ysgol honno yw’r ysgol briodol agosaf fel arall. Mae’r Mesur hefyd yn egluro’r cyfrifoldeb am gostau teithio ar gyfer plentyn sy’n derbyn gofal pan fydd y trefniadau teithio’n cael eu gwneud yn ardal awdurdod arall.

My written statement set out the other key provisions and the objectives in the proposed Measure that remain unchanged. The new Measure will be put in place under powers already available. However, through extensive consultation I am aware of the widespread concern regarding bus regulation and safety issues, which cannot at present be tackled because of constraints on the Assembly’s law-making powers. I therefore propose to seek an enhancement of the National Assembly’s powers to take the steps needed to ensure maximum safety for our young people. This process could take some time, and, meanwhile, I have issued new guidance to local authorities. This includes the Assembly Government’s view that the three-for-two seating concession, double-deckers and other practices should not be used other than in exceptional circumstances.

Yn fy natganiad ysgrifenedig, gosodwyd y darpariaethau allweddol eraill a’r amcanion yn y Mesur arfaethedig sydd heb eu newid. Bydd y Mesur newydd yn cael ei roi ar waith dan y pwerau sydd ar gael eisoes. Fodd bynnag, drwy ymgynghori’n eang, yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r pryder cyffredinol ynglŷn â’r materion sy’n ymwneud â rheoleiddio bysiau ac â diogelwch. Nid oes modd mynd i’r afael â’r rhain ar hyn o bryd oherwydd y cyfyngiadau ar bwerau deddfu’r Cynulliad. Felly, bwriadaf geisio cryfhau pwerau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol er mwyn cymryd y camau angenrheidiol i sicrhau’r diogelwch mwyaf i’n pobl ifanc. Mae’n bosibl y bydd angen cryn amser i wneud hyn, ac, yn y cyfamser, yr wyf wedi rhoi canllawiau newydd i awdurdodau lleol. Mae hyn yn cynnwys barn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad na ddylid defnyddio’r consesiwn tri mewn sedd i ddau, bysiau deulawr nac arferion eraill, ac eithrio dan amgylchiadau eithriadol.

  

I propose to support the amendment, but in doing that, I am accepting the principle of the amendment, because I think that a reference to exceptional circumstances should be added in relation to the use of the three-for-two seating, which I will explain, if I get the chance, when I respond to the debate. However, I accept the principle of the amendment and the spirit in which it was tabled, and I am pleased that the Conservatives will be supporting us as we seek extra powers. In conclusion, I commend this Measure to Members, and hope that it will now receive broad support to progress to the next stage.

Bwriadaf gefnogi’r gwelliant, ond wrth wneud hynny, derbyn egwyddor y gwelliant yr wyf, oherwydd credaf y dylid ychwanegu cyfeiriad at amgylchiadau eithriadol o ran caniatáu tri mewn sedd i ddau, ac esboniaf hynny, os caf gyfle, wrth imi ymateb i’r ddadl. Fodd bynnag, derbyniaf egwyddor y gwelliant a’r ysbryd sydd wrth wraidd ei gyflwyno, ac yr wyf yn falch y bydd y Ceidwadwyr yn ein cefnogi wrth inni geisio pwerau ychwanegol. I gloi, cymeradwyaf y Mesur hwn i’r Aelodau, gan obeithio y caiff gefnogaeth eang yn awr er mwyn bwrw ymlaen at y cyfnod nesaf.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I propose amendment 1 in the name of William Graham. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Andrew R.T. Davies: Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw William Graham. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

regrets that the Measure cannot include provision to proscribe the 'three for two’ rule on school buses.

yn gresynu na all y Mesur gynnwys darpariaeth i wahardd y rheol 'tri am ddau’ ar fysiau ysgol.

Thank you, Minister, for opening the debate this afternoon. I think that we all aspire to safe learner transport, and we all look forward to working towards that goal. I represent the region where the tragedy involving Stuart Cunningham-Jones occurred in 2002—indeed, I live some three miles away as the crow flies, and I vividly remember that night. Mercifully, such incidents are few and far between, but that is little or no comfort to the family or to the community that is affected.

Diolch, Weinidog, am agor y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Credaf ein bod i gyd yn dyheu am drafnidiaeth ddiogel i ddysgwyr, ac yr ydym i gyd yn edrych ymlaen at weithio at y nod hwnnw. Yr wyf yn cynrychioli’r rhanbarth lle y digwyddodd y trychineb i Stuart Cunningham-Jones yn 2002—yn wir, yr wyf yn byw ryw dair milltir i ffwrdd fel yr hed y frân, ac mae’r noson honno’n fyw yn fy nghof. Diolch byth, nid yw pethau fel hyn yn digwydd yn aml, ond go brin bod hynny’n fawr o gysur nac yn gysur o gwbl i’r teulu nac i’r gymuned yr effeithir arnynt.

We can only try to understand the difficulties that children experience when they use school transport, and the way that that affects them as they go through their education—the element of bullying that can creep in and the lack of safety that is perceived by some children on some routes to school.  Mercifully, the school run is safe for most people, but there are aspects that need to be addressed. For example, the Minister touched upon safety specifically; sadly, this institution does not have the relevant powers to legislate in that area at the moment, but it is a matter of great importance that we acquire those powers as soon as possible. In the evidence-gathering sessions in the Enterprise and Learning Committee, time and again we were forcibly told that, without those powers we will be letting children down with regard to their education and welfare.

Ni allwn ond ceisio deall yr anawsterau y bydd plant yn eu hwynebu wrth ddefnyddio cludiant i’r ysgol, a’r ffordd y mae hynny’n effeithio arnynt wrth iddynt ddilyn llwybr eu haddysg—yr elfen o fwlio a all ddigwydd yn llechwraidd a’r teimlad sydd gan rai plant fod rhai llwybrau i’r ysgol yn beryglus. Diolch byth, mae’r daith i’r ysgol yn ddiogel i’r rhan fwyaf, ond mae angen mynd i’r afael ag ambell agwedd. Er enghraifft, soniodd y Gweinidog am ddiogelwch yn benodol; yn anffodus, nid oes gan y sefydliad hwn y pwerau perthnasol i ddeddfu yn y maes hwnnw ar hyn o bryd, ond mae’n fater o bwys mawr inni gael y pwerau hynny cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl. Yn y sesiynau casglu tystiolaeth yn y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, dro ar ôl tro, cawsom ar ddeall yn ddigon pendant, y byddwn, heb y pwerau hyn, yn gwneud tro sâl â phlant o ran eu haddysg a’u lles.

3.20 p.m.

 

The most compelling evidence that the committee took was from Belt-up School Kids, which brought in a young lad from Gwent to share the experience he had had before a dramatic improvement was undertaken on the transport system in his local area. He spoke about the use of CCTV, the quality of bus transport, and, in particular, the driver and the ability to connect with that driver—perhaps because the driver had received training; the pupil referred to the driver as 'his driver’ and said that the other people on the bus referred to him as 'their driver’. He said that, as a result of ownership being taken of that route, his life had improved dramatically—because of those very simple things that Stuart’s Campaign for Safer School Buses and many transport operators had been seeking to bring into the transport model. In the evidence-gathering session on 26 September, the Record will show that I asked the headteachers’ association specifically whether the Measure as outlined would improve school transport and make a difference. The answer was that it would not, because the association clearly thought that we were putting the cart before the horse in not trying to seek these powers from Westminster. I know that we were offered, time and again, the assurance that we will revisit this issue. However, we all appreciate the difficulties with the timetable and the programme and the fact that, once Government has had a bite of the cherry, the issue falls by the wayside. Therefore, I hope that, from the consultation process and through evidence-gathering, the Government, with uniform support across the Chamber, will seek to address the fundamentals. I see that, tomorrow, there is the debate on Huw Lewis’s proposed legislative competence Order on the provision of bus and coach services. Huw was a member of the committee when it was taking evidence, and I know that he too subscribed to many of the opinions that were put before us.

Y dystiolaeth gryfaf a ddaeth gerbron y pwyllgor oedd gan Belt-up School Kids, a ddaeth â bachgen ifanc o Went yno i sôn am y profiad yr oedd wedi’i gael cyn gwella’r system drafnidiaeth yn ddramatig yn ei ardal leol. Soniodd am ddefnyddio teledu cylch cyfyng, am safon y bysiau, ac, yn benodol, am y gyrrwr a’r gallu i feithrin cyswllt â’r gyrrwr hwnnw—efallai oherwydd bod y gyrrwr wedi’i hyfforddi; yr oedd y disgybl yn cyfeirio at y gyrrwr fel 'ei yrrwr’ gan ddweud bod y bobl eraill ar y bws yn sôn amdano fel 'eu gyrrwr’ hwythau. Dywedodd, drwy berchenogi’r llwybr hwnnw, fod ei fywyd wedi gwella’n ddramatig—oherwydd y pethau syml iawn hynny yr oedd Ymgyrch Stuart dros Fysiau Ysgol Mwy Diogel a llawer o gwmnïau trafnidiaeth wedi bod yn ceisio’u cyflwyno i’r model trafnidiaeth. Yn y sesiwn casglu tystiolaeth ar 26 Medi, bydd y Cofnod yn dangos imi ofyn i gymdeithas y penaethiaid yn benodol a fyddai’r Mesur fel y’i hamlinellwyd yn gwella cludiant i’r ysgol ac a fyddai’n gwneud gwahaniaeth. Yr ateb oedd na fyddai, oherwydd yr oedd y gymdeithas yn amlwg yn meddwl ein bod yn rhoi’r cart o flaen y ceffyl drwy beidio â cheisio’r pwerau hyn gan San Steffan. Gwn inni gael cynnig y sicrwydd, dro ar ôl tro, y byddwn yn dychwelyd at y mater hwn. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym i gyd yn sylweddoli’r anawsterau gyda’r amserlen a’r rhaglen a’r ffaith bod y mater, ar ôl i’r Llywodraeth gael un cyfle, yn cael ei adael ar fin y ffordd. Felly, gobeithiaf, yn sgîl y broses ymgynghori a thrwy gasglu’r dystiolaeth, y bydd y Llywodraeth, gyda chefnogaeth gan bawb ar draws y Siambr, yn ceisio mynd i’r afael â’r hanfodion. Gwelaf y cynhelir y ddadl yfory ynglŷn â Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig  Huw Lewis  ynghylch darparu gwasanaethau bysiau a choetsys. Yr oedd Huw yn aelod o’r pwyllgor pan oedd yn casglu tystiolaeth, a gwn ei fod yntau’n cytuno â llawer o’r safbwyntiau a roddwyd ger ein bron.

Another aspect was the code of conduct, which was a real issue for headteachers, local authorities and parents groups, because where would the responsibility lie? I follow what the Minister has done; it might not be welcomed by everyone, but what is needed, via a code of conduct, is a clear line of command and a clear structure. I agree that not everyone will support that, but as long as there is clarity in the code of conduct and people know where the responsibility lies, we will have an element of consensus on the way forward.

Agwedd arall oedd y cod ymddygiad, a oedd yn broblem go iawn i benaethiaid, i awdurdodau lleol ac i grwpiau rhieni, oherwydd pwy a fyddai’n gyfrifol? Yr wyf yn deall yr hyn y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i wneud; efallai na fydd pawb yn ei groesawu, ond yr hyn y mae ei angen, drwy gyfrwng cod ymddygiad, yw eglurder yn y drefn o ran pwy sydd ag awdurdod, a strwythur clir. Cytunaf na fydd pawb yn cefnogi hynny, ond cyn belled â bod y cod ymddygiad yn glir a bod pobl yn gwybod pwy sy’n gyfrifol, bydd gennym elfen o gonsensws ynglŷn â’r ffordd ymlaen.

In closing, we offer our support. We tabled our amendment just to put a marker down. We support the Measure, but we believe that no impetus should be lost in seeking those powers, addressing the three-for-two rule and the use of CCTV, and upgrading the transport fleet. We appreciate that addressing this is a financial commitment, and that it could be a severe financial commitment, for the Government and local authorities. The American model was often mentioned, but we must not forget the financial might of America or the fact that the system there is well established, and not one that has come about overnight. While we all want to move towards that goal, so that children and learners of all ages can go to school and get the best education possible, we must be realistic in our ambition, and we must be measured to ensure that we achieve real outcomes instead of having lofty dreams that will not deliver for the pupils, parents and the educational establishments.

Wrth gloi, cynigiwn ein cefnogaeth. Ein hunig fwriad wrth gyflwyno ein gwelliant oedd gosod nod. Yr ydym yn cefnogi’r Mesur, ond credwn na ddylid colli’r symbyliad wrth geisio’r pwerau hynny, gan fynd i’r afael â’r rheol tri mewn sedd i ddau a defnyddio teledu cylch cyfyng, ac uwchraddio’r fflyd drafnidiaeth. Sylweddolwn fod mynd i’r afael â hyn yn ymrwymiad ariannol, ac y gallai fod yn ymrwymiad ariannol difrifol, i’r  Llywodraeth ac i awdurdodau lleol. Soniwyd yn aml am fodel America, ond rhaid inni beidio ag anghofio grym ariannol America na’r ffaith bod y system yno wedi hen gael ei thraed dani, ac nad un sydd wedi ymddangos dros nos ydyw. Er ein bod i gyd am symud tuag at y nod hwnnw, er mwyn i blant a dysgwyr o bob oedran allu mynd i’r ysgol a chael yr addysg orau posibl, rhaid inni fod yn realistig yn ein huchelgais, a rhaid inni fod yn bwyllog er mwyn sicrhau ein bod cyflawni canlyniadau go iawn, yn hytrach na chael breuddwydion clodwiw nad oes modd eu gwireddu ar gyfer y disgyblion, y rhieni a’r sefydliadau addysgol.

Gareth Jones: Yr wyf yn falch o’r cyfle, fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, i gyfrannu at y ddadl hon ar egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru). Fel y clywsoch gan y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog, ym mis Gorffennaf y llynedd, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru gynigion ar gyfer Mesur drafft. Yr ydym yn croesawu’n fawr ddynesiad agored a chynhwysol y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wrth wneud hyn, a roes gyfle i’r pwyllgor ddylanwadu ar y cynigion cyn eu cyflwyno gerbron y Cynulliad. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’i swyddogion am gydweithio â’n hymchwiliad ac am ddarparu gwybodaeth ychwanegol yn ôl y galw.

Gareth Jones: I am pleased to have the opportunity, as Chair of the Enterprise and Learning Committee, to contribute to this debate on the general principles of the proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure. As you heard from the Deputy First Minister, the Welsh Assembly Government announced last July proposals for a draft Measure. We very much welcome the Deputy First Minister’s open and inclusive approach in doing so, giving the committee an opportunity to influence the proposals before they were laid before the Assembly. We are grateful to the Deputy First Minister and his officials for co-operating with our inquiry and for providing additional information as required.

O gofio cefndir enbyd o drist y mater hwn, a chan sylweddoli y gallai ein gwaith craffu wneud gwahaniaeth i’r Mesur arfaethedig a gyflwynid gerbron y Cynulliad, bu i’r pwyllgor ymgymryd ag ymchwiliad craffu yn ystod mis Medi a mis Hydref y llynedd. Ein bwriad oedd dylanwadu ar y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a cheisio sicrhau y byddai Mesur mor gadarn ac effeithiol â phosibl yn cael ei gyflwyno. Gallaf sicrhau Aelodau bod ein gwaith mor fanwl a thrylwyr ag yr oedd amser a natur ein hymchwiliad craffu cyn deddfu yn caniatáu. Bu i’r pwyllgor gymryd tystiolaeth gan randdeiliaid allweddol a oedd yn cynrychioli safbwyntiau gwahanol: er enghraifft, teithwyr, llywodraeth leol, undebau athrawon a chwmnïau trafnidiaeth.

Given the heart-rending background to this matter, and recognising that our scrutiny work could make a difference to the proposed Measure laid before the Assmelby, the committee undertook its scrutiny during September and October of last year. Our intention was to influence the Minister and to try to ensure that the Measure was as robust and effective as possible when introduced. I can assure Members that our work was as detailed and thorough as the time and nature of our prelegislative scrutiny allowed. The committee took evidence from key stakeholders representing different views, such as passengers, local government, teachers’ unions and transport companies.

Bu cyfraniad y tystion o gymorth aruthrol i ni gael golwg newydd ar faterion megis problemau ymddygiad, diogelwch ffyrdd a cherbydau, cyfrifoldebau prifathrawon ac awdurdodau lleol, sicrhau cludiant i ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg ac i ddisgyblion ag anghenion arbennig. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar i bawb a gyfrannodd at ein hymchwiliad drwy ddarparu tystiolaeth ar lafar ac yn ysgrifenedig. Yn arbennig, talaf deyrnged i urddas ac effeithiolrwydd Ymgyrch Stuart am ein helpu ni i gyd i gofio pam fod angen i ni drafod y mater hwn a gwella’r sefyllfa.

The contribution of the witnesses was of considerable value in allowing us to have a new view on matters such as behaviour problems, vehicle and road safety, the responsibilities of headteachers and local authorities, securing transport to Welsh-medium schools and for pupils with special needs. We are grateful to all those who contributed to our inquiry by providing oral and written evidence. I pay particular tribute to the dignity and effectiveness of Stuart’s Campaign for helping us all to remember why we need to discuss this matter and improve the situation.

Gosododd y pwyllgor ei adroddiad gerbron y Cynulliad ar 21 Tachwedd, gan wneud naw o argymhellion. Mae’n dda gennyf ddweud y bu i’r adroddiad dderbyn cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol, unfrydol yn y pwyllgor, a’n bod, felly, yn cefnogi egwyddorion y Mesur arfaethedig a gyflwynir yma heddiw.

The committee laid its report before the Assembly on 21 November, and made nine recommendations. I am pleased to say that the report received unanimous, cross-party support in the committee, and we therefore support the principles of the proposed Measure that is being presented today.

Bu cyfraniad y tystion o gymorth aruthrol i ni gael golwg newydd ar faterion megis problemau ymddygiad, diogelwch ffyrdd a cherbydau, cyfrifoldebau prifathrawon ac awdurdodau lleol, sicrhau cludiant i ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg ac i ddisgyblion ag anghenion arbennig. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar i bawb a gyfrannodd at ein hymchwiliad drwy ddarparu tystiolaeth ar lafar ac yn ysgrifenedig. Yn arbennig, talaf deyrnged i urddas ac effeithiolrwydd Ymgyrch Stuart am ein helpu ni i gyd i gofio pam fod angen i ni drafod y mater hwn a gwella’r sefyllfa.

The contribution of the witnesses was of considerable value in order to allow us to have a new view on matters such as behaviour problems, vehicle and road safety, the responsibilities of headteachers and local authorities, ensuring transport to Welsh-medium schools and for pupils with special needs. We are grateful to all those who contributed to our inquiry through providing oral and written evidence. I pay particular tribute to the dignity and effectiveness of Stuart’s Campaign for helping us all to remember why we need to discuss this matter and improve the situation.

I note from the Minister’s written statement, issued on 15 April, that he acknowledges the importance of the committee’s scrutiny inquiry. It has clearly influenced him in drafting the proposed Measure. On behalf of the committee, I am obliged to the Minister for this and for his acknowledgement of the effectiveness of the committee’s scrutiny. As always in committee, our scrutiny sought to be open, fair, constructive, inclusive, positive, and to drive improvement. I am glad that our report on the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure has clearly achieved that aim.

Sylwaf yn natganiad ysgrifenedig y Gweinidog a gyhoeddwyd ar 15 Ebrill, ei fod yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd ymchwiliad craffu’r pwyllgor. Mae’n amlwg iddo ddylanwadu arno wrth iddo lunio’r Mesur arfaethedig. Ar ran y pwyllgor, yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am hyn ac am iddo gydnabod effeithiolrwydd craffu’r pwyllgor. Fel sydd bob amser yn wir yn y pwyllgor, ein nod wrth graffu oedd bod yn agored, yn deg, yn adeiladol, yn gynhwysol, yn gadarnhaol, a sbarduno gwelliant. Yr wyf yn falch ei bod yn amlwg i’n hadroddiad am y Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) gyflawni’r nod hwnnw.

We examined the key issues presented by witnesses and made recommendations where we felt the draft Measure on which the Minister was consulting either fell short or needed further clarification. In undertaking our inquiry, we recognised that the Assembly had the scope to legislate for travel to school and for post-16 learners as currently established by the Education Act 1996 as amended. However, we also knew that the Assembly did not have the powers to legislate for matters that are the responsibility of the Department for Transport, such as vehicle standards and licensing, vehicle inspection, seating arrangements—particularly the three-for-two concession—seatbelts, and driver licensing. These are crucial areas. I welcome the Minister’s undertaking that he will seek further powers. We trust that his interim step of issuing guidance to local authorities on, for example, checks for drivers, will prove effective in the meantime. However, as stated in our report, we will consider bringing forward a legislative competence Order of our own should progress on seeking further powers from Westminster not be swift enough or effective enough.

Aethom ati i archwilio’r prif faterion a gyflwynwyd gan dystion gan gynnig  argymhellion lle’r oeddem yn teimlo bod y Mesur drafft yr oedd y Gweinidog yn ymgynghori yn ei gylch naill ai’n ddiffygiol neu fod angen rhagor o eglurhad. Wrth gynnal ein hymchwiliad, yr oeddem yn sylweddoli y gallai’r Cynulliad ddeddfu ynglŷn â theithio i’r ysgol ac ynglŷn â  dysgwyr ôl-16 yn unol â darpariaethau Deddf Addysg 1996 fel y’i diwygiwyd. Fodd bynnag, gwyddem hefyd nad oedd gan y Cynulliad y pwerau i ddeddfu ar faterion sy’n gyfrifoldeb i’r Adran Drafnidiaeth, megis safonau a thrwyddedu cerbydau, archwilio cerbydau, trefniadau seddi—yn enwedig y consesiwn tri mewn sedd i ddau—gwregysau diogelwch, a thrwyddedu gyrwyr. Mae’r rhain yn feysydd hollbwysig. Croesawaf ymrwymiad y Gweinidog y bydd yn ceisio rhagor o bwerau. Hyderwn y bydd y cam interim y mae’n bwriadu ei gymryd, sef rhoi canllawiau i awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn ag archwilio gyrwyr, er enghraifft, yn effeithiol yn y cyfamser. Fodd bynnag, fel y dywedwyd yn ein hadroddiad, byddwn yn ystyried cyflwyno Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol ein hunain oni fydd y cynnydd o ran ceisio rhagor o bwerau gan San Steffan yn ddigon cyflym neu’n ddigon effeithiol.

Another vital issue that featured in our inquiry was procurement in order to ensure the provision of good quality and safe transport. All witnesses made an explicit link between the quality of transport and the behaviour of learners. We were surprised to learn that risk assessments are not always carried out on modes of transport. We also heard how short-term contracts discourage operators from investing in modern, quality vehicles. We explored whether a standard tender document should be implemented by the 22 local authorities to ensure a common standard throughout Wales, and were persuaded by the arguments in favour. We therefore recommended that the current non-statutory guidance on contracts be placed on a statutory basis, and that it should include a standard draft tender document. Although the Minister assured us that guidance issued under the Measure would be relevant to local authority contracts, we do not believe that this fully accepts our recommendation, and we ask him to reconsider.

Mater hollbwysig arall a gododd yn ein hymchwiliad oedd caffael er mwyn sicrhau bod cludiant diogel o safon yn cael ei ddarparu. Yr oedd pob tyst yn gweld cysylltiad amlwg rhwng safon y cludiant ac ymddygiad dysgwyr. Yr oeddem yn synnu o gael ar ddeall nad yw asesiadau risg yn cael eu cynnal bob tro ar bob math o gludiant. Clywsom hefyd sut y mae contractau tymor byr yn peri bod cwmnïau’n gyndyn o fuddsoddi mewn cerbydau modern o safon. Buom yn ystyried a ddylai’r 22 awdurdod lleol ddefnyddio dogfen dendro safonol er mwyn sicrhau’r un safon ledled Cymru, a chawsom ein darbwyllo gan y dadleuon o blaid hynny. Felly, argymhellwyd y dylid gwneud y canllawiau anstatudol a roddir ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â chontractau yn rhai statudol, ac y dylai hynny gynnwys dogfen dendro ddrafft safonol. Er i’r Gweinidog ein sicrhau y byddai’r canllawiau a gyhoeddid dan y Mesur yn berthnasol i gontractau awdurdodau lleol, ni chredwn fod hyn yn derbyn ein hargymhelliad yn llawn, a gofynnwn iddo ailystyried.

In contributing to this debate, members of the committee will no doubt wish to highlight various aspects of our report and the issues scrutinised. As referred to by Andrew R.T. Davies, probably the most compelling evidence we heard was from a schoolboy who attended one of our meetings and who described how frightened he had been on many occasions when travelling to school. I will quote from the Record of Proceedings:

Wrth gyfrannu at y ddadl hon, mae’n ddiamau y bydd aelodau’r pwyllgor yn dymuno tynnu sylw at wahanol agweddau ar ein hadroddiad a’r materion y craffwyd arnynt. Fel y dywedodd Andrew R.T. Davies, mae’n debyg mai’r dystiolaeth gryfaf a glywsom oedd gan fachgen ysgol a ddaeth i un o’n cyfarfodydd ac a ddisgrifiodd gymaint o ofn a oedd wedi bod arno droeon wrth deithio i’r ysgol. Dyfynnaf o Gofnod y Trafodion:

'I travelled to school each day on a double-decker bus. Sometimes, I would have to stand and sometimes I would have to share a seat with two other adult-sized peers, even though that seat was built to accommodate only two passengers. Sometimes, my bus was late, so I would be late for school, and sometimes my bus did not turn up. Sometimes, some of us were bullied and sometimes some of us would worry because we could see that our driver found it hard to concentrate on the road. That was because there was always a trouble-maker on board, someone who was prepared to put all of us at risk just for a laugh.’

Byddwn yn teithio i’r ysgol bob dydd ar fws deulawr. Weithiau, byddai’n rhaid imi sefyll ac weithiau, byddai’n rhaid imi rannu sedd gyda dau gyd-ddisgybl arall a’r rheini mor fawr ag oedolion, er mai i ddau deithiwr yr oedd y sedd honno wedi’i gwneud. Weithiau, yr oedd fy mws yn hwyr, felly byddwn yn hwyr i’r ysgol, ac weithiau, ni fyddai’r bws yn cyrraedd o gwbl. Weithiau, byddai rhai ohonom yn cael ein bwlio ac weithiau, byddai rhai ohonom yn poeni oherwydd ein bod yn gallu gweld bod ein gyrrwr yn ei chael yn anodd canolbwyntio ar y ffordd. Y rheswm oedd bod rhywun bob tro ar y bws a fyddai’n creu helynt, rhywun a fyddai’n barod i’n peryglu i gyd, dim ond er mwyn cael sbort.

3.30 p.m.

 

I hardly need to emphasise the poignancy of his words and the obvious lack of progress that that kind of provision demonstrates. We also heard from him that a few simple measures, such as purpose-built buses and the same driver for each journey, each day, can make a vast difference to a learner’s experience of travel.

Prin bod angen imi bwysleisio dwyster ei eiriau a’r diffyg cynnydd amlwg y mae’r math hwnnw o ddarpariaeth yn ei ddangos. Yr ydym hefyd wedi clywed ganddo y gall ychydig o fesurau syml, megis bysiau pwrpasol a’r un gyrrwr i bob siwrnai, bob dydd, wneud gwahaniaeth enfawr i brofiad dysgwr o deithio.

I trust that this proposed Measure will make the difference that all Assembly Members desire. I support its general principles. However, the committee will take a close interest in how the legislation will be implemented, and the effect of the subordinate legislation pursuant to it and guidance emanating from the Minister’s department. As I have already mentioned, the committee may consider proposing legislation of its own, should additional powers in this area not be forthcoming. Another tragedy simply cannot happen.

Hyderaf y bydd y Mesur arfaethedig hwn yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth y mae holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ei ddymuno. Cefnogaf ei egwyddorion cyffredinol. Fodd bynnag, bydd y pwyllgor yn cymryd diddordeb manwl yn y ffordd y caiff y ddeddfwriaeth ei gweithredu, ac effaith yr is-ddeddfwriaeth a ddeillia ohoni a’r canllawiau a fydd yn dod o adran y Gweinidog. Fel yr wyf wedi crybwyll yn barod, efallai y bydd y pwyllgor yn ystyried cynnig ei ddeddfwriaeth ei hun, pe na bai pwerau ychwanegol yn y maes hwn yn cael eu rhoi. Ni chaiff trychineb arall ddigwydd.

Yr wyf yn falch o gael cyfrannu at y ddadl hon ar egwyddorion cyffredinol Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru), ac i ddwyn sylw’r Cynulliad at effaith a dylanwad gwaith craffu’r Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu.

I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate on the general principles of the proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure, and to draw the Assembly’s attention to the effect and influence of the Enterprise and Learning Committee’s scrutiny work.

Alun Cairns: The Finance Committee understood the Assembly Government’s intention to move quickly on this Measure, particularly due to the fact that a draft had been considered for some time. However, the committee was disappointed at not having had as much time as it would have liked to consider the financial elements of the proposed Measure. We hope that, in future Measures, a better opportunity will be given for further and deeper scrutiny of the drafts and proposed Measures. Nonetheless, we were grateful that the Business Committee provided more than the minimum time, as this allowed us to give us some level of scrutiny to what was tabled. Under the circumstances, our examination of the Measure has had to brief, and, unfortunately, it was not possible to find time to discuss the issue with the Deputy First Minister. To his credit, he made every effort to meet with us, but, sadly, that could not be arranged. Nonetheless, we are grateful that he was able to make officials available to give evidence to the committee in his absence. The committee was also grateful to the Welsh Local Government Association for providing written evidence so quickly.

Alun Cairns: Yr oedd y Pwyllgor Cyllid yn deall bwriad Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i symud yn gyflym ar y Mesur hwn, yn enwedig oherwydd y ffaith bod drafft wedi cael ei ystyried ers peth amser. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y pwyllgor yn siomedig na chafodd gymaint o amser ag y byddai wedi’i hoffi i ystyried elfennau ariannol y Mesur arfaethedig. Gobeithiwn, gyda Mesurau yn y dyfodol, y rhoddir gwell cyfle i graffu ymhellach ac yn ddyfnach ar ddrafftiau a Mesurau arfaethedig. Serch hynny, yr oeddem yn ddiolchgar bod y Pwyllgor Busnes wedi rhoi mwy o amser na’r isafswm, gan fod hyn yn caniatáu inni graffu i ryw raddau ar yr hyn a gyflwynwyd. O dan yr amgylchiadau, mae ein harchwiliad o’r Mesur wedi gorfod bod yn fyr, ac, yn anffodus, nid oedd yn bosibl canfod amser i drafod y mater gyda’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog. Er clod iddo, gwnaeth bob ymdrech i gwrdd â ni, ond, yn anffodus, nid oedd modd trefnu hynny. Serch hynny, yr ydym yn ddiolchgar iddo allu sicrhau bod ei swyddogion ar gael i roi tystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor yn ei absenoldeb. Yr oedd y pwyllgor yn ddiolchgar hefyd i Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru am ddarparu tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig mor gyflym.

The financial implications of the Measure fall into a number of areas. First, there are revenue costs, and while the committee recognises that efforts have been made to assess these, Members were puzzled as to why the knowledge and expertise of local authorities had not been involved to a greater extent. We would have liked to have seen the Welsh Assembly Government simply reconcile its estimates against those given by local authorities.

Mae goblygiadau ariannol y Mesur yn ymwneud â nifer o feysydd. Yn gyntaf, mae’r costau refeniw, ac er bod y pwyllgor yn cydnabod bod ymdrechion wedi cael eu gwneud i asesu’r rhain, yr oedd yr Aelodau yn methu deall pam nad oedd gwybodaeth ac arbenigedd yr awdurdodau lleol wedi cael eu cynnwys i raddau helaethach. Byddem wedi hoffi gweld Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cysoni ei hamcangyfrifon hi â’r rhai a roddwyd gan yr awdurdodau lleol.

There are also likely to be capital costs, but the Government, by its own admission, has not taken account of these. The Finance Committee’s view is that there is bound to be a need, in some schools, for capital expenditure on vehicles and associated infrastructure work of building pick-up and drop-off points. The committee could not understand why work to identify these costs could not have proceeded in liaison with local authorities. Nonetheless, the committee welcomed confirmation that local authorities would receive full funding for these additional duties in line with the commitment given to local government previously.

Mae’n debygol hefyd y bydd costau cyfalaf, ond nid yw’r Llywodraeth, yn ôl ei haddefiad ei hun, wedi ystyried y rhain. Mae’r Pwyllgor Cyllid o’r farn y bydd angen gwariant cyfalaf, yn ddiamheuol, mewn rhai ysgolion, ar gerbydau a gwaith seilwaith cysylltiol i adeiladu mannau codi a gollwng. Ni allai’r pwyllgor ddeall pam na ellid bod wedi bwrw ymlaen â gwaith i ganfod y costau hyn, ar y cyd â’r awdurdodau lleol. Serch hynny, yr oedd y pwyllgor yn croesawu’r cadarnhad y byddai’r awdurdodau lleol yn cael cyllid llawn ar gyfer y dyletswyddau ychwanegol hyn yn unol â’r ymrwymiad a roddwyd i lywodraeth leol cyn hyn.

The committee noted that the proposed Measure would give Ministers powers to make secondary legislation in a number of areas, and that the financial consequences of these areas of secondary legislation could be significant. We welcomed the Minister’s assurance in his letter to the committee that the financial implications of such regulations would be clearly brought out and that local authorities and the Finance Committee would be given the opportunity to consider them.

Nododd y pwyllgor y byddai’r Mesur arfaethedig yn rhoi pwerau i Weinidogion lunio is-ddeddfwriaeth mewn nifer o feysydd, ac y gallai canlyniadau ariannol y meysydd is-ddeddfwriaethol hynny fod yn sylweddol. Yr oeddem yn croesawu’r sicrwydd a roddwyd gan y Gweinidog yn ei lythyr at y pwyllgor y byddai goblygiadau ariannol rheoliadau o’r fath yn cael eu hamlygu’n glir ac y byddai’r cyfle yn cael ei roi i’r awdurdodau lleol a’r Pwyllgor Cyllid eu hystyried.

On a personal note, I welcome the Measure that has been tabled, but I also question why it has taken so long to come to this stage, given the reviews that have been undertaken by other committees. It is unfortunate that all of the key recommendations made by the campaign in the name of Stuart Cunningham-Jones—Stuart’s Campaign—such as the abolition of the 3 for 2 rule and the introduction of safety belts, cannot be met. I support some of the comments that have been made by the two previous speakers.

Ar nodyn personol, yr wyf yn croesawu’r Mesur a gyflwynwyd, ond yr wyf hefyd yn cwestiynu pam y mae wedi cymryd cyhyd i gyrraedd y cam hwn, o ystyried yr adolygiadau yr ymgymerwyd â hwy gan bwyllgorau eraill. Mae’n anffodus na ellir cyflawni’r holl argymhellion allweddol a wnaethpwyd gan yr ymgyrch yn enw Stuart Cunningham-Jones—Ymgyrch Stuart—megis dileu’r rheol 3 mewn sedd i 2 a chyflwyno gwregysau diogelwch. Cefnogaf rai o’r sylwadau a wnaethpwyd gan y ddau siaradwr blaenorol.

The need for transportation to Welsh-language schools is mentioned, but I believe that it falls short of what the Welsh Conservative Party would like to see. However, we look forward to deeper scrutiny of that issue at the appropriate time. We regret that there is no allocation made in this respect and, in the same way, to support transport to faith schools.

Sonnir am yr angen am gludiant i ysgolion Cymraeg, ond ni chredaf fod hynny’n mynd cyn belled ag y byddai Plaid Geidwadol Cymru am ei weld. Fodd bynnag, edrychwn ymlaen at graffu dyfnach ar y mater hwnnw ar yr adeg briodol. Mae’n flin gennym na wneir dyraniad yn y cyswllt hwn ac, yn yr un modd, i gefnogi cludiant i ysgolion ffydd.

Finally, I welcome the disciplinary code for many reasons, but what legal advice has the Minister sought in relation to pupils with special needs? Some conditions, such as attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, manifest themselves in bad behaviour, so this would obviously need to be taken into account within the disciplinary code.

Yn olaf, croesawaf y cod disgyblu am lawer o resymau, ond pa gyngor cyfreithiol y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’i geisio mewn perthynas â disgyblion ag anghenion arbennig? Mae rhai cyflyrau, megis anhwylder diffyg canolbwyntio a gorfywiogrwydd, yn amlygu eu hunain drwy ymddygiad gwael, felly mae’n amlwg y byddai angen i hyn gael ei ystyried yn y cod disgyblu.

Ann Jones: The need for this Measure has been highlighted by previous speakers, and I fully commend its principle. It would be a shame if this most needed Measure faltered at the local authority end. That could happen, because it appears that we will not be ring-fencing funding for this Measure, but that we will be putting it through the revenue support grant. That gives me some great fears, and some great worries, given that my own authority—Denbighshire County Council—has a very poor record in spending its standard spending assessment, or its indicator-based assessment in education. We all know of the disastrous consequences of underfunding in education, with money spent elsewhere by Denbighshire County Council, which has become known as a disastrous, confusing and cutting authority. Therefore—[Interruption.] If you want me to say it again, I will; I believe that I said Denbighshire County Council.

Ann Jones: Mae’r angen am y Mesur hwn wedi cael ei amlygu gan siaradwyr blaenorol, ac yr wyf yn cymeradwyo ei egwyddor yn llwyr. Byddai’n drueni pe bai’r Mesur hwn y mae cymaint o angen amdano yn pallu ar ochr yr awdurdodau lleol. Gallai hynny ddigwydd, oherwydd y mae’n ymddangos na fyddwn yn neilltuo cyllid ar gyfer y Mesur hwn, ond y byddwn yn ei roi drwy’r grant cynnal refeniw. Mae hynny’n rhoi braw mawr imi, ac yn gwneud imi boeni’n fawr, o ystyried bod gan fy awdurdod i—Cyngor Sir Ddinbych—record wael iawn o ran gwario ei asesiad o wariant safonol, neu ei asesiad wedi’i seilio ar ddangosyddion, ym maes addysg. Gŵyr pawb ohonom am ganlyniadau trychinebus tangyllido ym maes addysg, gydag arian yn cael ei wario mewn mannau eraill gan Gyngor Sir Ddinbych, sydd wedi dod yn adnabyddus fel awdurdod trychinebus, dryslyd, sy’n gwneud toriadau. Felly—[Torri ar draws.] Os ydych am imi ddweud hynny eto, fe wnaf; credaf imi ddweud Cyngor Sir Ddinbych.

It cannot only be Denbighshire County Council. I believe that there will be other authorities that, because they have seen some tight settlements this year, will look to finance their own projects from within the revenue support grant. I do not feel that their priorities will be as great as the Assembly’s priorities. In taking this Measure through, Deputy First Minister, will you revisit the hypothecation issue, and will you assure me that you will speak to local authorities, so that we can trace the additional money that they will receive?

Nid yw’n bosibl mai Cyngor Sir Ddinbych yw’r unig un. Credaf y bydd awdurdodau eraill a fydd, am eu bod wedi gweld setliadau tynn eleni, yn ceisio cyllido eu prosiectau eu hunain drwy ddefnyddio’r grant cynnal refeniw. Ni chredaf y bydd eu blaenoriaethau hwy mor fawr â blaenoriaethau’r Cynulliad. Wrth fynd â’r Mesur hwn rhagddo, Ddirprwy Brif Weinidog, a wnewch edrych eto ar fater neilltuo cyllid, ac a wnewch fy sicrhau y siaradwch â’r awdurdodau lleol, fel y gallwn olrhain yr arian ychwanegol a gânt?

Kirsty Williams: I thank the Deputy First Minister for opening this debate, for the written statement that was released several days ago, and for the courtesy shown to the spokespeople in arranging a briefing with him and his officials on that morning. We appreciate the way in which the Deputy First Minister has sought to achieve consensus in the Chamber on this particular Measure.

Kirsty Williams: Diolchaf i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog am agor y ddadl hon, am y datganiad ysgrifenedig a ryddhawyd rai diwrnodau’n ôl, ac am y cwrteisi a ddangoswyd tuag at y llefarwyr drwy drefnu cyfarfod briffio gydag ef a’i swyddogion y bore yma. Yr ydym yn gwerthfawrogi’r ffordd y mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wedi ceisio sicrhau consensws yn y Siambr ar y Mesur neilltuol hwn.

This Measure is an improvement on where we were some time ago when we started this process. The consultation exercise and the committee’s work have gone a long way to addressing some of the concerns that I had at that stage about what the Government was proposing. The Welsh Liberal Democrats very much welcome the changes to the criteria, so that more children will be eligible for free school transport at a primary level. We also welcome the clarification and the further thinking that has gone into the issues around the code of conduct. It was obvious from the evidence that we received that headteachers were hugely concerned that they would be responsible for implementing any code, whether it was set regionally or nationally. It is appropriate that we have a national code of conduct for students who are travelling, to be enforced by local education authorities, which will then have the power to remove the right to transport should it feel that students are not honouring their side of the contract.

Mae’r Mesur hwn yn welliant o’i gymharu â’r sefyllfa beth amser yn ôl pan ddechreuasom ar y broses hon. Mae’r ymgynghoriad a gwaith y pwyllgor wedi gwneud llawer i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r pryderon a oedd gennyf bryd hynny ynglŷn â’r hyn yr oedd y Llywodraeth yn ei gynnig. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu’r newidiadau yn y meini prawf yn fawr iawn, fel y bydd mwy o blant yn gymwys i gael cludiant am ddim i’r ysgol ar lefel gynradd. Yr ydym hefyd yn croesawu’r eglurhad a’r ystyried pellach a fu ynglŷn â’r materion yn ymwneud â’r cod ymddygiad. Yr oedd yn amlwg yn ôl y dystiolaeth a gawsom fod penaethiaid yn pryderu’n fawr iawn y byddent hwy’n gyfrifol am weithredu unrhyw god, pa un a gâi ei bennu’n rhanbarthol neu’n genedlaethol. Mae’n briodol bod gennym god ymddygiad cenedlaethol i fyfyrwyr sy’n teithio, sydd i gael ei orfodi gan yr awdurdodau addysg lleol, a fydd â’r pŵer wedyn i ddileu’r hawl i gael cludiant pe baent yn teimlo nad yw myfyrwyr yn anrhydeddu eu hochr hwy i’r contract.

However, many questions remain. We note the strengthening of provision regarding access to Welsh-medium education. I appreciate, from the evidence that we received, that it is perhaps not as simple as I first thought in terms of making it mandatory—that might have unintended consequences for Welsh-medium education. Therefore, I welcome the strengthening of that point, and I look forward to testing it again during further stages of this Measure.

Fodd bynnag, erys llawer o gwestiynau. Nodwn fod y ddarpariaeth yn cael ei chryfhau o ran mynediad at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Yr wyf yn sylweddoli, ar sail y dystiolaeth a gawsom, nad yw efallai mor syml ag y tybiais i ddechrau o ran gwneud hynny’n orfodol—gallai hynny arwain at ganlyniadau nas bwriadwyd i addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg. Felly, yr wyf yn croesawu’r ffaith bod y pwynt hwnnw’n cael ei gryfhau, ac edrychaf ymlaen at ei brofi eto yn ystod cyfnodau pellach y Mesur hwn.

3.40 p.m.

 

However, there is still scope for discrimination with regard to religious education. For example, in my constituency, if parents choose Welsh-medium education for their children, their transport is paid for, but if they are Roman Catholic and wish to see their children attending a Roman Catholic school, my authority will not pay for it. In Monmouth or Newport, the authorities would pay in such cases. Why do certain children in certain parts of Wales, whose parents have a determination for them to be educated in that manner, not have redress to national rules and regulations? Why are they at the mercy of an individual authority?

Fodd bynnag, mae’n bosibl o hyd y bydd gwahaniaethu o safbwynt addysg grefyddol. Er enghraifft, yn fy etholaeth i, os yw rhieni’n dewis addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg i’w plant, telir am gludiant iddynt, ond os ydynt yn Babyddion a’u bod am i’w plant fynd i ysgol Babyddol, ni wnaiff fy awdurdod dalu am hynny. Ym Mynwy neu Gasnewydd, byddai’r awdurdodau’n talu mewn achosion o’r fath. Pam nad yw rheolau a rheoliadau cenedlaethol yn unioni cam rhai plant mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru, y mae eu rhieni’n penderfynu eu bod am iddynt gael eu haddysgu yn y dull hwnnw? Pam maent ar drugaredd awdurdod unigol?

I also still have concerns about the issue of two and three miles. Two miles in a village setting, or in a large estate, with 20 mph zones may be an appropriate distance to expect a child to walk to school, but two or three miles down a country B-road where there is no pavement, pedestrian facilities or street lighting is an awfully long way to expect an 11-year-old to walk to school. I know that there are measures to which local authorities should have due regard in terms of making the route safe, but, in my experience of my own local authority, it never finds on the side of the child’s parent; it always finds on its own side. It finds some excuse as to why that route is safe. A recent example is the local authority saying that a route is safe if the child is accompanied by an adult. What 15-year-old wants to walk to school with mum or dad or with an appropriate adult? I know that I would not have wanted to do that.

Mae gennyf bryderon o hyd hefyd ynglŷn â’r mater dwy a thair milltir. Efallai y byddai dwy filltir o fewn pentref, neu ar ystâd fawr, gyda pharthau 20 mya, yn bellter priodol i ddisgwyl i blentyn gerdded i’r ysgol, ond mae dwy neu dair milltir ar hyd ffordd B wledig lle nad oes palmant, cyfleusterau i gerddwyr na goleuadau stryd yn ffordd hir iawn i ddisgwyl i blentyn 11 oed gerdded i’r ysgol. Gwn fod mesurau eraill y dylai awdurdodau lleol roi sylw priodol iddynt o ran gwneud y llwybr yn ddiogel, ond, yn ôl fy mhrofiad i o’m hawdurdod lleol fy hun, nid yw byth yn dyfarnu o blaid rhiant y plentyn; mae bob amser yn dyfarnu o’i blaid ei hun. Mae’n canfod rhyw esgus pam mae’r llwybr hwnnw’n ddiogel. Un enghraifft ddiweddar yw’r awdurdod lleol yn dweud bod llwybr yn ddiogel os yw’r plentyn yng nghwmni oedolyn. Pa blentyn 15 oed sydd am gerdded i’r ysgol gyda’i fam neu ei dad neu gydag oedolyn priodol? Gwn na fuaswn i am wneud hynny.

So, the issue is: what is safe? Two or three miles can still be a considerable distance to walk if there are no adequate facilities. Yes, we should be encouraging pupils to walk, but we have to bear in mind the nature of the journeys that some of our children have to make to school. However, ultimately, whatever this Measure achieves, there is a great, glaring hole, in that some of the most significant concerns expressed by parents, campaigners and Members over many years cannot be addressed, because of this institution’s lack of powers.

Felly, y cwestiwn yw beth sy’n ddiogel? Gall dwy neu dair milltir fod yn gryn bellter i’w gerdded os nad oes cyfleusterau digonol. Dylem, fe ddylem fod yn annog disgyblion i gerdded, ond rhaid inni feddwl am natur y siwrneiau y mae’n rhaid i rai o’n plant eu gwneud i fynd i’r ysgol. Fodd bynnag, yn y pen draw, beth bynnag a gyflawnir gan y Mesur hwn, mae bwlch mawr, amlwg, gan na ellir mynd i’r afael â rhai o’r pryderon mwyaf arwyddocaol a fynegwyd gan rieni, ymgyrchwyr ac Aelodau dros lawer o flynyddoedd, oherwydd diffyg pwerau’r sefydliad hwn.

I welcome the Deputy First Minister’s commitment to seeking further powers in this regard—it goes much further than what we got from Brian Gibbons last year, which was, 'We asked, but they said 'no’, so what can we do?’. At least we now have a commitment to taking the fight for those powers to Westminster; it is appropriate for them to be held by the Assembly. However, the Deputy First Minister does not say when that will happen. He has given no indication of how long he expects this process to take or whether he believes that Huw Lewis’s LCO provides us with that opportunity; given Government support, that might be the quickest way in which we can move forward in this arena. However, I would like the Deputy First Minister to tell us today how long it will take to get these powers. As the Chair of my committee clearly stated, it was the committee’s unanimous decision that powers should be sought—by the committee, if necessary, if the Government was not willing to move forward in an appropriate timescale.

Yr wyf yn croesawu ymrwymiad y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog i geisio pwerau pellach yn y cyswllt hwn—mae’n mynd lawer ymhellach na’r hyn a gawsom gan Brian Gibbons y llynedd, sef, 'Fe ofynasom ni, ond dywedasant hwy 'na’, felly beth y gallwn ei wneud?’. O leiaf mae gennym ymrwymiad yn awr i fynd â’r frwydr am y pwerau hynny i San Steffan; mae’n briodol i’r Cynulliad feddu arnynt. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn dweud pryd y bydd hynny’n digwydd. Nid yw wedi rhoi dim awgrym ynghylch faint o amser y mae’n disgwyl i’r broses hon ei gymryd nac a yw’n credu bod Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol Huw Lewis yn rhoi’r cyfle hwnnw inni; o gael cefnogaeth y Llywodraeth, efallai mai dyna fyddai’r ffordd gyflymaf y gallwn symud ymlaen yn y maes hwn. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog ddweud wrthym heddiw faint o amser y bydd yn ei gymryd i gael y pwerau hyn. Fel y dywedodd Cadeirydd fy mhwyllgor yn glir, yr oedd yn benderfyniad unfrydol gan y pwyllgor y dylid ceisio pwerau—y dylai’r pwyllgor wneud hynny, pe bai angen, pe na bai’r Llywodraeth yn barod i symud ymlaen ar amserlen briodol.

In the absence of those powers, the Deputy First Minister has to look again at providing statutory guidance on contracts to local authorities. If we cannot move forward because we do not have the powers in one regard, we must use the powers that we currently have to best effect. As was clearly demonstrated in the consultation and in evidence, it is the power of commissioning and the buying in of services by local authorities that makes a difference for those children who ride on closed routes. We must acknowledge that many children travel to school on service buses, so we must look at how local authorities are contracting for their bus services.

Gan nad yw’r pwerau hynny gennym, rhaid i’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog edrych eto ar ddarparu canllawiau statudol ar gontractau i’r awdurdodau lleol. Os na allwn symud ymlaen gan nad yw’r pwerau gennym mewn un cyswllt, rhaid inni ddefnyddio’r pwerau sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd i gael yr effaith orau. Fel y dangoswyd yn glir yn yr ymgynghoriad ac mewn tystiolaeth, pŵer yr awdurdodau lleol i gomisiynu a phrynu gwasanaethau sy’n gwneud gwahaniaeth i’r plant hynny sy’n cael eu cludo ar lwybrau caeedig. Rhaid inni gydnabod bod llawer o blant yn teithio i’r ysgol ar fysiau gwasanaeth, felly rhaid inni edrych ar y ffordd y mae awdurdodau lleol yn gosod contractau ar gyfer eu gwasanaethau bws.

Cheapest is not always best. I have no doubt that my county council has saved a great deal of money in this financial year by retendering its bus contract, but they should ask the children of Powys if they are happier or if they are getting a better service. They get a cheaper service, but is it better? No, it is not. We cannot measure quality and value with a pound sign. We need to look at the kind of vehicles on which our children are travelling and at the kind of operators running those vehicles. We need to see how those children are experiencing their journeys. This is a welcome step forward, but the Welsh Liberal Democrats would like to know when the Deputy First Minister proposes to take the next step.

Nid y rhataf yw’r gorau bob amser. Nid oes gennyf ddim amheuaeth nad yw fy nghyngor sir wedi arbed llawer iawn o arian yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon drwy aildendro ei gontract bysiau, ond dylai ofyn i blant Powys a ydynt yn hapusach neu a ydynt yn cael gwell gwasanaeth. Maent yn cael gwasanaeth rhatach, ond a yw’n well? Nac ydyw. Ni allwn fesur ansawdd a gwerth â symbol punt. Mae angen inni edrych ar y math o gerbydau y mae ein plant yn teithio arnynt ac ar y math o weithredwyr sy’n rhedeg y cerbydau hynny. Mae angen inni weld beth yw profiad plant o’u siwrneiau. Mae hwn yn gam ymlaen i’w groesawu, ond hoffai Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru wybod pryd y mae’r Dirprwy Brif Weinidog yn bwriadu cymryd y cam nesaf.

Janet Ryder: I am pleased that the Deputy First Minister has brought this forward today and I thank him for it. On behalf of Plaid Cymru we are pleased that a Plaid Cymru Minister is bringing this forward. He has shown that he listens to the issues that have been raised in bringing forward many changes to the proposed Measure. Several Members have gone through the problems and the points that arose in discussion of the consultation draft, and the Minister has shown that he has listened and taken on board what he can, and has noted the lack of powers in this institution, which were quite graphically outlined by Kirsty and the Tories. As he is a Plaid Cymru Minister, I am sure that he will want to see those powers vested in the Assembly and will be moving for that transfer of powers as soon as possible. Like Kirsty, I look forward to hearing when we will have those powers. It looks all set for a referendum, with all parties in the Chamber showing their support for greater powers for the Assembly. That is a positive move forward.

Janet Ryder: Yr wyf yn falch bod y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog wedi cyflwyno hyn heddiw a diolchaf iddo amdano. Ar ran Plaid Cymru,yr ydym yn falch mai Gweinidog o Blaid Cymru sy’n cyflwyno hyn. Mae wedi dangos ei fod yn gwrando ar y pwyntiau sydd wedi cael eu codi drwy gyflwyno llawer o newidiadau yn y Mesur arfaethedig. Mae amryw o Aelodau wedi cyfeirio at y problemau a’r pwyntiau a gododd wrth drafod y drafft ymgynghori, ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi dangos ei fod wedi gwrando ac wedi derbyn yr hyn a all, ac wedi sylwi ar y diffyg pwerau yn y sefydliad hwn, a amlinellwyd yn glir iawn gan Kirsty a’r Torïaid. Gan ei fod yn Weinidog o Blaid Cymru, yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yn awyddus i weld y pwerau hynny’n cael eu rhoi i’r Cynulliad ac y bydd yn cynnig, cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl, fod y pwerau hynny’n cael eu trosglwyddo. Fel Kirsty, yr wyf yn edrych ymlaen at glywed pryd y byddwn yn cael y pwerau hynny. Mae’n ymddangos ein bod yn barod am refferendwm, gyda phob plaid sydd yn y Siambr yn dangos ei bod yn awyddus i gael mwy o bwerau i’r Cynulliad. Mae hynny’n gam cadarnhaol ymlaen.

Daeth Peter Black i’r Gadair am 3.46 p.m.
Peter Black took the Chair at 3.46 p.m.

Y Cofnod

It was interesting to hear the issues that have been raised, but many of them are for local authorities to deal with. I think that we can issue strong guidance on contracting issues and who contracts are made with, and the Minister has said that he will ensure strong memoranda and make his views on this clear to local government. The Liberal Democrats and the Tories should say what they think local authorities should do in this regard. As we have heard them argue in the past, local government is an independent tier of government and therefore can make its own choices. Or do we in the Assembly think that we should direct it as to how to use those powers? It is an interesting debate that the Tories and the Liberal Democrats have opened up today about what the role of local government is.

Yr oedd yn ddiddorol clywed y pwyntiau a godwyd, ond mae llawer ohonynt yn faterion ar gyfer awdurdodau lleol. Credaf y gallwn roi canllawiau cryf ar faterion contractio, a chyda phwy y gellir gwneud contractau, ac mae’r Gweinidog wedi dweud y bydd yn sicrhau memoranda cryf ac yn datgan ei farn ynglŷn â hyn yn glir wrth lywodraeth leol. Dylai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol a’r Torïaid ddweud beth, yn eu barn hwy, y dylai awdurdodau lleol ei wneud yn y cyswllt hwn. Fel yr ydym wedi’u clywed yn dadlau yn y gorffennol, mae llywodraeth leol yn haen annibynnol o lywodraeth ac, o ganlyniad, gall wneud ei dewisiadau ei hun. Ynteu a ydym ni yn y Cynulliad yn credu y dylem ddweud wrthi sut y mae defnyddio’r pwerau hynny? Mae’r Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi dechrau dadl ddiddorol heddiw ynglŷn â beth yw rôl llywodraeth leol.

Alun Cairns: Perhaps I can seek clarification on where you stand on this point, Janet. A four-year-old pupil in the Vale of Glamorgan spends an hour and 10 minutes on travelling to school, yet the Plaid Cymru cabinet member is seeking to do everything to defend that. Do you think that I should leave it to the Plaid Cymru cabinet member to do that, or should guidance be placed within this legislation setting a maximum time, such as in England, of 45 minutes to travel to school?

Alun Cairns: Efallai y caf ofyn ichi egluro beth yw eich safbwynt ar y pwynt hwn, Janet. Mae disgybl pedair oed ym Mro Morgannwg yn treulio awr a 10 munud yn teithio i’r ysgol, ac eto mae’r aelod cabinet o Blaid Cymru’n ceisio gwneud popeth i amddiffyn hynny. A ydych yn credu y dylwn adael i’r aelod cabinet o Blaid Cymru wneud hynny, ynteu a ddylid cyhoeddi canllawiau yn rhan o’r ddeddfwriaeth hon a fydd yn pennu, fel yn Lloegr, na ddylai plant dreulio mwy na 45 munud yn teithio i ysgol?

Janet Ryder: Strangely enough, I did not hear you mention that in your speech. With regard to the powers of local government, Plaid Cymru has maintained for a long time that now that the Assembly is firmly established, we need a commission to look at everything under the Assembly. I would welcome Tory and Liberal Democrat support for that commission so that we can get to grips with how Wales should be governed now that the Assembly is here.

Janet Ryder: Yn rhyfedd iawn, ni’ch clywais yn cyfeirio at hynny yn eich araith. O ran pwerau llywodraeth leol, mae Plaid Cymru wedi dweud ers tro byd, gan fod y Cynulliad wedi cael ei draed tano erbyn hyn, fod arnom angen comisiwn i edrych ar bopeth sydd dan y Cynulliad. Byddwn yn croesawu cefnogaeth y Torïaid a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’r comisiwn hwnnw er mwyn inni allu penderfynu sut y dylai Cymru gael ei llywodraethu gan fod y Cynulliad yma erbyn hyn.

To return to the Measure before us, I again compliment the Minister on bringing it forward and on being a listening Minister. He has listened to the committee, has acted on issues raised in committee and has made changes. I welcome the move to a national code of conduct, as that was one of the most contentious issues raised in committee. It will ensure that all local education authorities will operate the same code of conduct. There should not be confusion over it—it will reduce confusion—and it will apply to all modes of transport, which is a huge step forward. That was an area that was specifically highlighted by the committee. It will apply to all pupils, regardless of the type of transport they use, which was another issue that was raised by the committee.

Gan ddychwelyd at y Mesur sydd ger ein bron, hoffwn unwaith eto ganmol y Gweinidog am ei gyflwyno ac am fod yn Weinidog sy’n gwrando. Mae wedi gwrando ar y pwyllgor, mae wedi gweithredu ar faterion a godwyd yn y pwyllgor ac wedi gwneud newidiadau. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r symudiad at god ymddygiad cenedlaethol, gan fod hynny’n un o’r materion mwyaf dadleuol a godwyd yn y pwyllgor. Bydd yn sicrhau y bydd pob awdurdod addysg lleol yn gweithredu’r un cod ymddygiad. Ni ddylai unrhyw ddryswch fod yn ei gylch—bydd yn lleihau dryswch—a bydd yn berthnasol i gludiant o bob math, sy’n gam mawr ymlaen. Yr oedd hwnnw’n faes y tynnwyd sylw penodol ato gan y pwyllgor. Bydd yn berthnasol i bob disgybl, ni waeth pa gludiant a ddefnyddir, ac yr oedd hynny’n bwynt arall a godwyd gan y pwyllgor.

The duty that will be placed on the LEAs to investigate misdemeanours again goes a step further to clarifying the problems in that regard that were raised by people who came before the committee. If misdemeanours are detected, the responsibility would still fall on the LEAs to enforce discipline under their own schools code, but this will take a big step forward in that whole area.

Mae’r ddyletswydd a fydd ar AALlau i ymchwilio i gamymddygiad yn gam ymlaen eto i egluro’r problemau yn y cyswllt hwnnw y cyfeiriwyd atynt gan bobl a ddaeth gerbron y pwyllgor. Pe canfyddid camymddygiad, byddai’r AALlau yn dal yn gyfrifol am orfodi disgyblaeth dan eu cod ysgolion eu hunain, ond bydd hyn yn gam mawr ymlaen yn y maes hwnnw yn ei gyfanrwydd.

I also welcome the duty to actively promote access to Welsh-medium education, which is a huge step forward, and I hope that the Minister will return to that issue in summing up and explain a bit more about it.

Yr wyf hefyd yn croesawu’r ddyletswydd i hybu mynediad at addysg Gymraeg, sy’n gam mawr ymlaen, ac yr wyf yn gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn dychwelyd at y mater hwnnw wrth grynhoi ac yn dweud ychydig bach mwy amdano.

There are a number of other issues, namely the introduction of 16 to 19 student transport and pupils’ movement during the school day, which have not really been taken up and to which we need to return. There is allowance for varying school start and finish times. There are still issues over three pupils in two seats and seatbelts, over which we do not have powers. I look forward to the Assembly being able to legislate on those matters when those powers are obtained. Plaid Cymru very much supports the Minister on this, and we thank him for bringing the Measure forward today.

Mae nifer o faterion eraill, sef cyflwyno trafnidiaeth i fyfyrwyr 16 i 19 oed a symudiadau disgyblion yn ystod y diwrnod ysgol, nad ydynt wedi cael eu hystyried a dweud y gwir, ac mae angen inni ddychwelyd atynt. Gellid amrywio’r amseroedd y mae ysgolion yn dechrau a gorffen. Mae problemau o hyd yn ymwneud â thri disgybl mewn sedd i ddau a gwregysau diogelwch, nad oes gennym ddim pwerau i ymdrin â hwy. Yr wyf yn edrych ymlaen at weld y Cynulliad yn gallu deddfu ar y materion hynny pan geir y pwerau hynny. Mae Plaid Cymru’n gefnogol iawn i’r Gweinidog ar y mater hwn, ac yr ydym yn diolch iddo am gyflwyno’r Mesur heddiw.

3.50 p.m.

 

Lesley Griffiths: I also welcome this proposed Measure and the opportunity to take part in the debate. The Measure comes before us today following an extensive and comprehensive consultation that started in June, which is when the Government published its draft proposals. I would hope that all parties can say that, thanks to the scrutiny of the Enterprise and Learning Committee, several changes have been made. That demonstrates how important proper consultation and scrutiny is to making good laws. The changes recommended by the committee, such as ensuring that a consistent approach is adopted across Wales, are to be welcomed. There is also a requirement on Welsh Ministers to ensure that a behaviour code applies to all travel that is connected with learning that is undertaken by those under the age of 19, whether or not the arrangements are made by the local authority. The fact that local authorities will now be primarily responsible for investigating all incidents that take place during travel to and from schools is welcome.

Lesley Griffiths: Yr wyf finnau’n croesawu’r Mesur arfaethedig hwn a’r cyfle i gymryd rhan yn y ddadl. Daw’r Mesur ger ein bron heddiw yn dilyn ymgynghoriad helaeth a chynhwysfawr a ddechreuodd ym mis Mehefin, pan gyhoeddodd y Llywodraeth ei chynigion drafft. Byddwn yn gobeithio y gall pob plaid ddweud, diolch i waith craffu’r Pwyllgor Menter a Dysgu, fod amryw o newidiadau wedi cael eu gwneud. Mae hynny’n dangos mor bwysig yw ymgynghori a chraffu priodol er mwyn gwneud deddfau da. Mae’r newidiadau a argymhellwyd gan y pwyllgor, megis sicrhau bod agwedd gyson yn cael ei mabwysiadu ledled Cymru, i’w croesawu. Mae’n ofynnol hefyd i Weinidogion Cymru sicrhau bod cod ymddygiad yn berthnasol i bob dull o deithio sy’n gysylltiedig â dysgu, ar gyfer pobl ifanc dan 19 oed, pa un a yw’r trefniadau’n cael eu gwneud gan yr awdurdod lleol ai peidio. Mae’r ffaith mai awdurdodau lleol fydd yn bennaf cyfrifol yn awr am ymchwilio i bob digwyddiad sy’n digwydd wrth deithio i’r ysgol neu oddi yno i’w chroesawu.

The key provisions and objectives in the proposed Measure remain unchanged, which are primarily those provisions that will provide a separate and simplified legislative framework for Wales. The principle of making more primary school pupils eligible for free travel and of maintaining the current distance threshold of three miles for secondary school pupils to qualify for free transport are improvements that we should all welcome.

Nid oes dim newid ym mhrif ddarpariaethau ac amcanion y Mesur arfaethedig, sef y darpariaethau hynny gan mwyaf a fydd yn darparu fframwaith deddfwriaethol syml, ar wahân ar gyfer Cymru. Mae’r egwyddor o wneud mwy o ddisgyblion ysgolion cynradd yn gymwys i deithio am ddim, ac o gynnal y trothwy pellter presennol o dair milltir ar gyfer disgyblion ysgol uwchradd i fod yn gymwys i gael cludiant am ddim, yn welliannau y dylai pob un ohonom eu croesawu.

As well as helping to improve safety, the Measure addresses sustainability and looked-after children. It introduces a duty on promoting access to education through the medium of Welsh. This Measure provides for new rights and responsibilities for schoolchildren. There are new rights in transport to school for primary school children, along with new responsibilities placed on young passengers to behave at all times on school buses, or risk being sanctioned by their headteacher.

Yn ogystal â helpu i wella diogelwch, mae’r Mesur yn rhoi sylw i gynaliadwyedd a phlant sy’n derbyn gofal. Mae’n cyflwyno dyletswydd i hybu mynediad at addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae’r Mesur hwn yn rhoi hawliau a chyfrifoldebau newydd i blant ysgol. Ceir hawliau newydd yn ymwneud â chludiant i’r ysgol ar gyfer plant ysgolion cynradd, a rhoddir cyfrifoldebau newydd i deithwyr ifanc fel ei bod yn ofynnol iddynt ymddwyn yn briodol drwy’r adeg, neu wynebu cosb gan eu pennaeth.

Children from socially disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely to be involved in road traffic accidents. By clamping down on bad behaviour and widening the eligibility criteria for learner travel, the Welsh Assembly Government is strengthening the protection for all young people in Wales, but especially those in deprived communities.

Mae plant o gefndiroedd difreintiedig yn fwy tebygol o fod mewn damweiniau ar y ffyrdd. Drwy fynd i’r afael ag ymddygiad gwael ac ehangu’r meini prawf cymhwysedd ar gyfer teithio gan ddysgwyr, mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cryfhau’r amddiffyn sydd ar gyfer holl bobl ifanc Cymru, yn enwedig y rhai sy’n byw mewn cymunedau difreintiedig.

I am very pleased that the aim is to implement the changes in time for the start of the 2009 academic year. Most importantly, I believe that these proposals will have a positive impact on thousands of schoolchildren and college students in Wales.

Yr wyf yn falch iawn mai’r nod yw gweithredu’r newidiadau mewn pryd ar gyfer dechrau blwyddyn academaidd 2009. Yn bennaf oll, credaf y bydd y cynigion hyn yn cael effaith gadarnhaol ar filoedd o blant ysgol a myfyrwyr sydd mewn colegau yng Nghymru.

Jenny Randerson: I wish to speak specifically about the financial aspects of this Measure, as a member of the Finance Committee—Members will have seen the critical report that the committee issued. The basic problem is that the figures in the report were the result of consultation with the Wales Audit Office only, and not with the Welsh Local Government Association or individual councils. The figures are somewhat historical, because they are 2006 figures, and can only be very broad-brush figures. Only individual councils can know the complex implications of this Measure for them. I want to dispel the myth that this is only a rural issue; it is also an urban issue. We are moving from a three-mile radius to a two-mile radius for primary school pupils, which I strongly welcome, and a large number of Welsh-medium and church schools in urban areas will take pupils from outside the two-mile radius. That, and the welcome expansion of Welsh-medium education in urban areas, means that more pupils will come within the ambit of this Measure, with obvious costs for the local authorities.

Jenny Randerson: Hoffwn siarad yn benodol am yr agweddau ariannol ar y Mesur hwn, fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyllid—bydd yr Aelodau wedi gweld yr adroddiad beirniadol a gyhoeddwyd gan y pwyllgor. Y broblem sylfaenol yw bod y ffigurau yn yr adroddiad yn seiliedig ar ymgynghoriad â Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru’n unig, ac nid â Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru na chynghorau unigol. Mae’r ffigurau braidd yn hanesyddol, gan mai ffigurau 2006 ydynt, ac ni allant fod yn fwy na ffigurau cyffredinol iawn. Dim ond cynghorau unigol all wybod beth yw goblygiadau cymhleth y Mesur hwn iddynt hwy. Yr wyf am chwalu’r myth mai problem wledig yn unig yw hon; mae’n broblem drefol hefyd. Yr ydym yn newid o radiws o dair milltir i radiws o ddwy filltir ar gyfer disgyblion ysgolion cynradd, ac yr wyf yn croesawu hynny’n fawr, ac mae nifer fawr o ysgolion Cymraeg ac ysgolion eglwys mewn ardaloedd trefol a fydd yn derbyn disgyblion o’r tu allan i’r radiws o ddwy filltir. Mae hynny, ynghyd â’r newyddion calonogol y bydd addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cael ei hehangu mewn ardaloedd trefol, yn golygu y bydd mwy o ddisgyblion yn dod o fewn cwmpas y Mesur hwn, ac mae’n amlwg y bydd costau i’r awdurdodau lleol.

The problem is that there are implications, not just in an expanding revenue commitment for local authorities, but in capital costs—the set-up costs—which are much more complicated. Only the schools will know whether the numbers involved will mean that they will need special school buses or whether the provision can be via service buses. Only the schools will know the addresses of their pupils and whether they are on a service bus route or whether they will have to provide specific school buses. If school buses have to be provided, there are, obviously, considerable capital implications in turning circles for school buses, barriers, safety provision and so on.

Y broblem yw bod goblygiadau, nid yn unig o ran ymrwymiad refeniw mwy i awdurdodau lleol, ond hefyd mewn costau cyfalaf—y costau sefydlu—sy’n fwy cymhleth o lawer.  Dim ond yr ysgolion fydd yn gwybod a fydd y niferoedd dan sylw’n golygu y bydd arnynt angen bysiau ysgol arbennig ynteu a ellir sicrhau’r ddarpariaeth drwy ddefnyddio bysiau gwasanaeth. Dim ond yr ysgolion fydd yn gwybod cyfeiriadau eu disgyblion ac a ydynt ar lwybr bws gwasanaeth ynteu a fydd yn rhaid iddynt ddarparu bysiau ysgol penodol. Os bydd yn rhaid darparu bysiau ysgol, bydd goblygiadau cyfalaf sylweddol, mae’n amlwg, o ran cylchoedd troi ar gyfer bysiau ysgol, rhwystrau, darpariaeth o ran diogelwch ac yn y blaen.

The Welsh Assembly Government has a commitment to fully fund all new duties placed on local authorities, and I ask the Minister to give a firm commitment to funding the capital costs for local authorities when, at the next stage of consideration of this Measure, we will have, I hope, much more detailed consultation with local authorities and with the WLGA. I would therefore welcome the Minister’s commitment today to fully fund the capital cost and to improve the financial information that will be available at the next stage, so that a more realistic approach is taken to the costs of this Measure.

Mae gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ymrwymiad i ariannu pob dyletswydd newydd a roddir i awdurdodau lleol yn llawn, a gofynnaf i’r Gweinidog roi ymrwymiad pendant y bydd yn rhoi arian ar gyfer costau cyfalaf awdurdodau lleol pan gawn, yn ystod y cam nesaf yn y broses o ystyried y Mesur hwn, ymgynghoriad manylach o lawer, gobeithio, gydag awdurdodau lleol a chyda CLlLC. Hoffwn felly groesawu ymrwymiad y Gweinidog heddiw i ariannu’r gost gyfalaf yn llawn ac i wella’r wybodaeth ariannol a fydd ar gael yn y cam nesaf, fel bod gennym agwedd fwy realistig at gostau’r Mesur hwn.

The Finance Committee, across party lines, was as one in its criticism of the amount of information provided and the weakness of that information. What we were not as one about was in any kind of view on how that money should be provided to local authorities—there was some discussion and, as a Welsh Liberal Democrat, I support the idea of ensuring that it is rolled into the local government settlement, although, obviously, the capital funding could be made via a special grant. However, I would welcome clarification from the Minister on any discussions that he has had with the Minister for local government as to how this money will be apportioned to local authorities, because the cost will vary so considerably from one local authority to another, as Kirsty Williams has said.

Yr oedd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, gan gynnwys pob plaid yn ddiwahân, yn unfrydol ei feirniadaeth bod cyn lleied o wybodaeth wedi’i darparu a bod y wybodaeth honno mor wan. Yr hyn nad oeddem yn unfrydol yn ei gylch oedd ein barn ynghylch sut y dylai’r arian hwnnw gael ei ddarparu i awdurdodau lleol—cafwyd rhywfaint o drafodaeth ac, fel un o Ddemocratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru, yr wyf yn cefnogi’r syniad o sicrhau ei fod yn cael ei gyflwyno yn y setliad i lywodraeth leol, er y gellid darparu’r arian cyfalaf drwy grant arbennig, wrth gwrs. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn falch pe gallai’r Gweinidog roi gwybod am unrhyw drafodaethau y mae wedi’u cael gyda’r Gweinidog dros lywodraeth leol ynglŷn â sut y bydd yr arian hwn yn cael ei ddosrannu i awdurdodau lleol, oherwydd bydd y gost yn amrywio cymaint o’r naill awdurdod lleol i’r llall, fel y dywedodd Kirsty Williams.

Although we have considerable criticisms of this Measure with regard to its weakness, we support the principle of it. However, its provisions will clearly become more expensive for the Welsh Assembly Government as the years pass, and it has to be properly funded from the start. Please let us not have a foundation phase mark II.

Er ein bod yn feirniadol iawn o’r Mesur hwn, oherwydd ei wendid, yr ydym yn cefnogi’r egwyddor. Fodd bynnag, mae’n amlwg y bydd ei ddarpariaethau’n dod yn fwy costus i Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru gyda threigl y blynyddoedd, a rhaid iddo gael ei ariannu’n briodol o’r dechrau. Nid ydym am weld sefyllfa fel yr un sydd gennym gyda’r cyfnod sylfaen.

Lorraine Barrett: It has been an interesting debate. There are just two points that I would like to pick up from the information given this afternoon. Something that needs to be emphasised and perhaps have a little more work done on it is the importance of parents being engaged in this, particularly when headteachers may have to sanction pupils who have misbehaved. Those headteachers, or the LEAs, if it is them, need the support of parents whose children have misbehaved. We hear all sorts of stories—there is perhaps a tendency these days for parents to think that their children are perfect and should not be picked on by the headteacher. It is really important therefore to work with parent-teacher associations and governing bodies to ensure that parents know what their responsibilities are and can then tell their children what their responsibilities are when they get on the school bus, or when they walk to school—I would like to see some emphasis placed on the walking bus, which has some health benefits, as well as cutting down on carbon emissions.

Lorraine Barrett: Mae wedi bod yn ddadl ddiddorol. Mae dau bwynt yr hoffwn eu codi o’r wybodaeth a roddwyd y prynhawn yma. Un peth y mae angen ei bwysleisio, a gwneud ychydig bach mwy o waith arno o bosibl,  yw pwysigrwydd cael rhieni i fod yn rhan o hyn, yn enwedig pan fydd penaethiaid efallai yn gorfod cosbi disgyblion sydd wedi camymddwyn. Mae ar y penaethiaid hynny, neu’r AALLau, os hwy sy’n gyfrifol, angen cefnogaeth rhieni y mae eu plant wedi camymddwyn. Yr ydym yn clywed pob mathau o storïau—efallai fod tuedd y dyddiau hyn i rieni feddwl bod eu plant yn berffaith ac na ddylai’r pennaeth bigo arnynt. Mae’n wirioneddol bwysig felly inni weithio gyda chymdeithasau rhieni ac athrawon a chyrff llywodraethu er mwyn sicrhau bod rhieni’n gwybod beth yw eu cyfrifoldebau a’u bod yn gallu dweud wrth eu plant beth yw eu cyfrifoldebau hwy pan fyddant yn mynd ar y bws ysgol, neu pan fyddant yn cerdded i’r ysgol—hoffwn weld rhywfaint o bwyslais yn cael ei roi ar y bws cerdded, sy’n lleihau allyriadau carbon ac yn cynnig rhai manteision o ran iechyd.

Several Members have mentioned pupils with special needs. I am a governor at Headlands School in Penarth, which is run by NCH Cymru. Those young people have really challenging behaviour and only last night we were discussing some of the difficulties the teachers and support workers face when they take the young people out on trips to the tennis centre, to the cinema or wherever. Many of those young people cannot control their temper or behaviour, and we discussed various protocols that may need to be looked at by support workers and teachers. If you are looking at a code of conduct, you can almost throw it out of the window when it comes to some of these youngsters with really challenging behaviour. I hope that that will be considered when the code of conduct and the Measure are progressed.

Mae amryw o’r Aelodau wedi cyfeirio at ddisgyblion sydd ag anghenion arbennig. Yr wyf yn llywodraethwr yn Ysgol Headlands ym Mhenarth, sy’n cael ei rhedeg gan NCH Cymru. Mae gan y bobl ifanc hynny ymddygiad gwirioneddol heriol a neithiwr ddiwethaf yr oeddem yn trafod rhai o’r anawsterau y mae’r athrawon a’r gweithwyr cymorth yn eu hwynebu pan fyddant yn mynd â’r bobl ifanc ar ymweliad â’r ganolfan dennis, i’r sinema neu i rywle arall. Mae llawer o’r bobl ifanc hynny’n methu â rheoli eu tymer neu eu hymddygiad, a buom yn trafod protocolau amrywiol y mae angen i weithwyr cymorth ac athrawon edrych arnynt o bosibl. Os ydych yn edrych ar god ymddygiad, gallwch ei daflu drwy’r ffenestr bron wrth ymdrin â rhai o’r bobl ifanc hyn a chanddynt ymddygiad heriol iawn. Gobeithiaf y caiff hynny ei ystyried wrth fwrw ymlaen â’r cod ymddygiad a’r Mesur.

I look forward to watching the development of this Measure and perhaps taking part, in some way, in its development.

Edrychaf ymlaen at wylio datblygiad y Mesur ac at gymryd rhan efallai, mewn rhyw ffordd, yn ei ddatblygiad.

Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair am 4.00 p.m.
The Presiding Officer took the Chair at 4.00 p.m.

Y Cofnod

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Yr wyf am ddiolch yn gynnes i bawb am gyfrannu i’r Mesur mewn ffordd mor adeiladol. Yr wyf yn hynod o ddiolchgar am y gefnogaeth amlwg i’r Mesur. Mae’n amlwg bod manylion y mae’n rhaid i ni eu hystyried ond, yn naturiol, yr wyf yn hynod o falch fod y gefnogaeth yno. Yr wyf wedi ymateb i nifer o’r pwyntiau a godwyd yn y pwyllgor ac os bydd materion eraill yr ydym am eu hystyried wrth fynd ymlaen, yn naturiol byddaf yn fodlon ystyried gwelliannau a fydd yn cryfhau’r Mesur ymhellach. Nid yw ein meddwl ar gau o ran newidiadau pellach, os ydynt yn briodol.

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones): I thank everyone who participated in such a constructive way to the Measure. I am very grateful for the obvious support for the Measure. Clearly, there are details that we must consider, but, naturally, I am very pleased by the support. I have responded to a number of points raised in the committee and if there are other issues that we want to consider in moving forward, naturally I will be willing to consider amendments that will further strengthen the Measure. Our minds are not closed to further changes, if they are appropriate.

I am not in a position to respond to all the points made today in view of the time available. However, I will respond to as many as I can and, if any issues remain outstanding, I will write to Members to explain the Government’s response to those.

Ac ystyried yr amser sydd ar gael, nid wyf yn gallu ymateb i’r holl bwyntiau a wnaethpwyd heddiw. Fodd bynnag, ymatebaf i gymaint ag y gallaf ac, os bydd unrhyw faterion ar ôl, ysgrifennaf at yr Aelodau i esbonio ymateb y Llywodraeth i’r rheini.

On the comments made by Andrew R.T. Davies, I think that I made it clear to the committee that I was minded to continue with the Measure while seeking extra powers. In other words, had I been persuaded that it was the route to take, I had the option of pulling the Measure and waiting until we had those extra powers, but my feeling—and I think that it is a view that is generally accepted—is that I should proceed with the Measure as it is, although its scope is limited, and seek the extra powers concurrently. I will come back to the timescale in relation to the points made by Kirsty Williams.

O ran sylwadau Andrew R. T. Davies, credaf imi ei gwneud yn glir i’r pwyllgor fy mod yn bwriadu parhau â’r Mesur wrth geisio pwerau ychwanegol. Hynny yw, pe bawn wedi cael fy narbwyllo mai dyna’r llwybr i’w gymryd, yr oedd yr opsiwn gennyf o beidio â mynd ymlaen â’r mesur ac aros nes bod y pwerau ychwanegol hynny gennym, ond fy nheimlad i—a chredaf fod hon yn farn a dderbynnir yn gyffredinol—yw y dylwn barhau â’r Mesur fel y mae, er bod ei gwmpas yn gyfyngedig, a cheisio pwerau ychwanegol ar yr un pryd. Dof yn ôl at yr amserlen yng nghyswllt y pwyntiau a wnaeth Kirsty Williams.

I have given that assurance and I will just say in passing, Kirsty, that the fact that there is widespread all-party support for those extra powers will be helpful to me as I seek them from the Department for Transport. It will strengthen my negotiations with the Department for Transport if all parties support those extra powers. I am not saying this in any party-political way, but it would also be very helpful, when these powers are sought, if the Welsh Conservative group in Parliament could support us as well. That would be extremely helpful in this regard. I now come to the points made by Gareth Jones.

Yr wyf wedi rhoi’r sicrwydd hwnnw, a dywedaf wrth basio, Kirsty, y bydd y ffaith bod cefnogaeth gyffredinol gan bob plaid i’r pwerau ychwanegol hynny o gymorth imi wrth imi geisio’r pwerau hynny gan yr Adran Drafnidiaeth. Bydd yn cryfhau fy nhrafodaethau gyda’r Adran Drafnidiaeth os bydd pob plaid yn cefnogi’r pwerau ychwanegol hynny. Ni ddywedaf hyn mewn ffordd wleidyddol o ran pleidiau, ond byddai’n ddefnyddiol iawn hefyd, pan ofynnir am y pwerau hyn, pe gallai grŵp y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig yn y Senedd ein cefnogi hefyd. Byddai hynny’n ddefnyddiol iawn yn hyn o beth. Trof yn awr at y pwyntiau a wnaethpwyd gan Gareth Jones.

Diolchaf i Gareth am y ffordd y cyflwynodd adroddiad y pwyllgor, gan gydnabod fod nifer o newidiadau yn sgîl y craffu effeithiol iawn a wnaed. Dyna oedd y tro cyntaf i mi ymddangos gerbron pwyllgor i drafod Mesur ac yr wyf yn hynod o falch i’r profiad hwnnw fod yn un ffrwythlon i ni fel Llywodraeth ac i chi fel pwyllgor, oherwydd yr ydych yn gwybod yn awr fod y craffu effeithiol a wnaethoch fel pwyllgor wedi cael dylanwad gwirioneddol ar y Mesur.

I thank Gareth for the way in which he presented the committee report, recognising that there were several changes following the very effective scrutiny that was carried out. It was the first time that I appeared before a committee to discuss a Measure and I am very pleased that that experience was a fruitful one for us as a Government and you as a committee, because you now know that the effective scrutiny that you carried out as a committee has had an effect on the Measure.

The one comfort that I cannot give to the committee, unfortunately, is in relation to the recommendations that it made regarding procurement and the fact that we should give statutory guidance on procurement. Unfortunately, that is also outside the Assembly’s legislative competence, so we are not able to take that particular step. Guidance will, of course, be issued in relation to that matter, but it will not be statutory guidance.

Mae’r cysur na allaf ei roi i’r pwyllgor, yn anffodus, yn ymwneud â’r argymhellion a wnaeth yng nghyswllt caffael a’r ffaith y dylem roi canllawiau statudol ynghylch caffael. Yn anffodus, mae hynny hefyd y tu allan i gymhwysedd deddfwriaethol y Cynulliad, felly ni allwn gymryd y cam penodol hwnnw. Wrth gwrs, bydd canllawiau’n cael eu cyhoeddi ynghylch y mater hwnnw, ond ni fyddant yn ganllawiau statudol.

On the points made by Alun Cairns, I must say that the Welsh Local Government Association has been working with us closely on the development of the Measure. On the revenue costs, we have not had an indication that the estimate that we have given, which is a very robust one, based on the Wales Audit Office’s figures, is out of line. We believe that those revenue costs are robust and, should the Measure succeed to law so that we are able to implement it from September 2009, we have already committed sufficient funding in our budget to meet that cost.

O ran y pwyntiau a wnaeth Alun Cairns, rhaid imi ddweud bod Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru wedi bod yn gweithio’n agos gyda ni i ddatblygu’r Mesur. O ran costau refeniw, nid oes neb wedi awgrymu bod yr amcangyfrif a roddasom, sydd yn un cadarn iawn, yn seiliedig ar ffigurau Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, yn anghywir. Credwn fod y costau refeniw hynny’n gadarn ac, os daw’r Mesur yn gyfraith fel y gallwn ei roi ar waith o fis Medi 2009 ymlaen, yr ydym eisoes wedi ymrwymo i roi digon o arian yn ein cyllideb i dalu’r gost honno.

In relation to the capital costs, the only point I would make is that our understanding is that the extra free transport affects 7,700 learners—that is, 7,700 learners will be eligible—and, across 1,500 primary schools in Wales, that will average out as five learners per school. There will be some schools where the numbers are higher, and some where the numbers are lower, but it will not be a substantial increase, and therefore we do not believe that there will be substantial additional capital costs.

O ran costau cyfalaf, yr unig bwynt y byddwn yn ei wneud yw bod y cludiant am ddim sy’n ychwanegol, yn ôl a ddeallwn, yn effeithio ar 7,700 o ddysgwyr—hynny yw, bydd 7,700 o ddysgwyr yn gymwys—ac mewn 1,500 o ysgolion cynradd yng Nghymru, bydd hynny’n gyfartaledd o bum dysgwr ar gyfer pob ysgol. Bydd y niferoedd yn uwch mewn rhai ysgolion, a bydd y niferoedd yn is mewn ysgolion eraill, ond ni fydd yn gynnydd sylweddol, ac felly ni chredwn y bydd costau cyfalaf ychwanegol sylweddol.

As I say, the WLGA has been closely involved in the development of the Measure—

Fel y dywedaf, mae CLlLC wedi ymwneud yn helaeth â datblygu’r Mesur—

Jenny Randerson: Will you take an intervention?

Jenny Randerson: A dderbyniwch ymyriad?

The Deputy First Minister: No, I want to answer other people’s points, if I may. If you have any other points to make I will be happy to deal with them in correspondence.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog: Na wnaf, hoffwn ateb pwyntiau pobl eraill, os caf. Os oes gennych bwyntiau eraill i’w gwneud byddaf yn fodlon ymdrin â hwy drwy ohebiaeth.

It was not until the letter of 14 April to the Finance Committee that we became aware that the WLGA may have some concerns. We are happy to discuss those further with the WLGA, but our current understanding is that those costs are not likely to be substantial.

Nid oeddem yn ymwybodol fod gan CLlLC bryderon efallai nes i’r Pwyllgor Cyllid gael  y llythyr dyddiedig 14 Ebrill. Yr ydym yn fodlon trafod y pryderon hynny ymhellach gyda CLlLC, ond yn ôl a ddeallwn ar hyn o bryd, nid yw’r costau hynny’n debygol o fod yn sylweddol.

Alun Cairns mentioned the issue of pupils with special educational needs, and I think he referred to autistic spectrum disorder, among other conditions. There is already guidance in place in relation to travel for children with special educational needs, but I will also include this in the guidance that will be sent out to local authorities about this new Measure. I can assure you that it will be taken into account when we deal with that.

Soniodd Alun Cairns am ddisgyblion ag anghenion addysgol arbennig, a chredaf iddo gyfeirio at anhwylder yn y sbectrwm awtistig, ymysg cyflyrau eraill. Mae canllawiau eisoes ar gael yng nghyswllt teithio i blant a chanddynt anghenion addysgol arbennig, ond byddaf yn cynnwys hyn hefyd yn y canllawiau a anfonir i awdurdodau lleol am y Mesur newydd hwn. Gallaf eich sicrhau y caiff ei ystyried pan ymdriniwn â hynny.

You also mentioned the issue of length of travel, in relation to a point that you made in an exchange with Janet. For example, should a 4-year-old have a journey of one hour and 15 minutes to get to school? Should it be a maximum of 45 minutes, or whatever? The Measure requires that transport should not take an unreasonable amount of time, and that is a new addition to the Measure. Guidance will deal with what is unreasonable, the definition of which will vary according to the age of the pupil, the area where they live—whether it is rural or urban—and the school that they attend. That will be covered in the guidance.

Soniasoch hefyd am bellter teithio, yng nghyswllt y pwynt a wnaethoch mewn trafodaeth gyda Janet. Er enghraifft, a ddylai plentyn 4 oed orfod teithio am awr a 15 munud i gyrraedd yr ysgol? A ddylai fod yn uchafswm o 45 munud, neu beth bynnag y bo? Yn ôl y Mesur, ni ddylai cludiant gymryd amser afresymol, ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth sydd wedi’i ychwanegu o’r newydd at y Mesur. Bydd y canllawiau’n ymdrin â’r hyn sy’n afresymol, a bydd y diffiniad yn amrywio yn ôl oedran y disgybl, yr ardal y maent yn byw ynddi—pa un a yw’n wledig neu’n drefol—a’r ysgol y maent yn ei mynychu. Bydd y canllawiau’n ymdrin â hynny.

Ann Jones asked whether we should ring-fence the money, and I know that she raised the point in the committee as well. I understand that there are strong views on this, and I think that there are two views. I am not currently persuaded that we should ring-fence the money—it should be part of the local government settlement, and I am not currently persuaded to change that view.

Gofynnodd Ann Jones a ddylem neilltuo’r arian, a gwn iddi godi’r pwynt hwn yn y pwyllgor hefyd. Deallaf fod gan bobl farn gref ar hyn, a chredaf fod dwy farn. Nid wyf yn argyhoeddedig ar hyn o bryd y dylem neilltuo’r arian—dylai fod yn rhan o’r setliad i lywodraeth leol, ac nid wyf wedi cael fy narbwyllo i newid y farn honno ar hyn o bryd.

Kirsty praised the Measure and the way that we have changed it to take account of the views of the committee. I am happy to respond to the point that she made about the timescale for acquiring the extra powers. The fact that the Assembly has given me unanimous support on that will help me in those negotiations. I can give Kirsty, and everyone else, an assurance that, as soon as is reasonably practical, I will make a request to the Department of Transport and open discussions with it. A meeting is currently being arranged with the Secretary of State for Transport, and one of the matters on my agenda for discussion at that meeting will of course be the request for those extra powers. I must make it clear that the current UK Government position is that there is no slot in its legislative programme to devolve those powers. However, it would be helpful to know whether the Department of Transport is prepared to accede to that request.

Canmolodd Kirsty y Mesur a’r ffordd yr ydym wedi ei newid er mwyn ystyried barn y pwyllgor. Yr wyf yn fodlon ymateb i’r pwynt a wnaeth am yr amserlen ar gyfer cael y pwerau ychwanegol. Bydd y ffaith bod y Cynulliad wedi rhoi cefnogaeth unfrydol imi yn hynny o beth yn fy helpu yn y trafodaethau hynny. Gallaf roi sicrwydd i Kirsty, ac i bawb arall, y byddaf, cyn gynted ag y mae’n rhesymol ymarferol, yn gwneud cais i’r Adran Drafnidiaeth ac yn dechrau trafodaethau gyda hi. Mae cyfarfod yn cael ei drefnu gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Drafnidiaeth ar hyn o bryd, ac, wrth gwrs, un o’r materion ar fy agenda i’w drafod yn y cyfarfod hwnnw fydd y cais am y pwerau ychwanegol hynny. Rhaid imi bwysleisio mai safbwynt presennol Llywodraeth y DU yw nad oes lle yn ei rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol i ddatganoli’r pwerau hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddai’n ddefnyddiol gwybod a yw’r Adran Drafnidiaeth yn barod i gydsynio â’r cais hwnnw.

You mentioned the difficulty about the limits of two miles and three miles and what is safe. The legislation will provide that a route is usable if it is safe for a child to walk alone, or with an escort, if the age of the child meant that that was necessary. Therefore, it is unlikely that a 15-year-old would be required to be accompanied, because the safeguard in the Measure takes account of the point that you made.

Soniasoch am yr anawsterau sy’n gysylltiedig â’r terfynau o ddwy filltir a thair milltir a’r hyn sy’n ddiogel. Bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yn pennu bod llwybr yn un y gellir ei ddefnyddio os yw’n ddiogel i blentyn gerdded ar ei ben ei hun, neu yng nghwmni rhywun, pe bai oedran y plentyn yn peri bod angen hynny. Felly, mae’n annhebygol y byddai angen i rywun fynd yn gwmni i blentyn 15 oed, oherwydd y mae’r mesur diogelwch yn y Mesur yn ystyried y pwynt a wnaethoch.

The other points made by Janet Ryder were strongly in support of the Measure and the way that we have responded. She made the point that the committee, and she as an individual Assembly Member, welcomed the provision of a national code of conduct.

Yr oedd y pwyntiau eraill a wnaethpwyd gan Janet Ryder yn cefnogi’r Mesur yn gryf a’r ffordd yr ydym wedi ymateb. Dywedodd fod y pwyllgor, a hithau fel Aelod Cynulliad unigol, yn croesawu bod cod ymddygiad cenedlaethol yn cael ei ddarparu.

4.10 p.m.

 

Lesley Griffiths also supported the Measure and the changes that we have adopted, and she was clear that we need to remember that behaviour on school buses is a big issue, and that we need to deal with it. Jenny Randerson referred to the position in relation to the costs; I clearly have not been able to persuade her so far that the position is as I set out in my earlier response, but if Jenny has other issues that she wishes to raise in relation to the challenges that local authorities have, I am happy to consider them. All I would say is that we have worked closely with the WLGA in progressing the Measure and looking at the changes.

Cefnogodd Lesley Griffiths y Mesur hefyd a’r newidiadau yr ydym wedi eu mabwysiadu, a phwysleisiodd fod angen inni gofio bod ymddygiad ar fysiau ysgol yn broblem fawr, a bod angen inni ddelio â hynny. Cyfeiriodd Jenny Randerson at y sefyllfa o ran costau; mae’n amlwg nad wyf wedi llwyddo i’w darbwyllo hyd yma fod y sefyllfa fel y nodais yn fy ymateb blaenorol, ond os oes gan Jenny faterion eraill y mae’n dymuno’u codi yng nghyswllt yr heriau y mae awdurdodau lleol yn eu hwynebu, yr wyf yn fodlon eu hystyried. Y cyfan a ddywedaf yw ein bod wedi gweithio’n agos gyda CLlLC wrth ddatblygu’r Mesur ac wrth edrych ar y newidiadau.

Lorraine Barrett indicated her support, and the point that she made will be well taken by all parties on all sides, namely that parents also have a considerable responsibility. However, at the end of the day, you must make a decision as to who is responsible for taking the steps in relation to disciplining someone who is guilty of bad behaviour. We have said in the Measure that that should be the responsibility of local authorities in relation to local authority travel. That will give us clarity. That may not be the view of everyone, and if there are other views, we are prepared to listen to them in committee. I think that I have responded to most, if not all, of the points. I welcome the support that has been given to the Measure so far; I will do what I can to seek those extra powers, and I thank all Assembly Members for giving their support in that regard.

Dangosodd Lorraine Barrett ei chefnogaeth, a bydd y pwyntiau a wnaeth yn cael eu croesawu gan bawb ar bob ochr, sef bod gan rieni gyfrifoldeb sylweddol. Fodd bynnag, yn y pen draw, rhaid ichi wneud penderfyniad ynghylch pwy sy’n gyfrifol am gymryd y camau o ran disgyblu rhywun sy’n euog o ymddygiad gwael. Yr ydym wedi dweud yn y Mesur mai awdurdodau lleol ddylai fod yn gyfrifol am hynny yng nghyswllt gwasanaethau teithio awdurdodau lleol. Bydd hynny’n rhoi eglurder inni. Efallai nad hynny yw barn pawb, ac os oes barn arall, yr ydym yn barod i wrando arni yn y pwyllgor. Credaf fy mod wedi ymateb i’r rhan fwyaf o’r pwyntiau, os nad y cyfan ohonynt. Croesawaf y gefnogaeth a roddwyd i’r Mesur hyd yma; gwnaf yr hyn a allaf i geisio’r pwerau ychwanegol hynny, a diolchaf i holl Aelodau’r Cynulliad am eu cefnogaeth yn hynny o beth.

Y Llywydd: Mae pawb wedi siarad o blaid y gwelliant, felly yr wyf yn cymryd nad oes neb yn ei wrthwynebu. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y gwelliant ei dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: As everyone has spoken in favour of the amendment, I take it that no-one is opposed to it. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the amendment is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd gwelliant 1.

Amendment 1 carried.

 

Motion NDM3920 as amended: that

Cynnig NDM3920 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.24:

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.24:

1. agrees to the general principles of the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure;

1. yn cytuno i egwyddorion cyffredinol y Mesur arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru);

2. regrets that the Measure cannot include provision to proscribe the 'three for two’ rule on school buses.

2. yn gresynu na all y Mesur gynnwys darpariaeth i wahardd y rheol 'tri am ddau’ ar fysiau ysgol.

Y Llywydd: Yr ail gynnig ger fy mron yw derbyn y cynnig fel y’i diwygiwyd. Gwelaf fod pawb yn arwyddo ei fod yn dderbyniol. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio ei dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: The second proposal before me is that the motion as amended is agreed. I see that everyone is indicating that it is acceptable. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion as amended is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd cynnig NDM3920 fel y’i diwygiwyd.
Motion NDM3920 as amended carried.

Y Cofnod

Y Llywydd: Felly, yr ydym wedi dod at ddiwedd Cyfnod 1 y Mesur hwn. Cyfnod 2 sydd nesaf, pan fydd y Mesur yn cael ei ystyried gan bwyllgor. Fel y cofiwch, gan ein bod i gyd wedi darllen Rheolau Sefydlog Rhif 23 ac ymlaen, mae’r cyfnod hwnnw yn cychwyn ar y diwrnod gwaith cyntaf ar ôl inni gwblhau’r Cyfnod 1, fel y bu inni wneud heddiw, felly, bydd cyfle i Aelodau gyflwyno gwelliannau yfory ar gyfer ystyriaeth yng Nghyfnod 2. Mae canllawiau ar gyflwyno gwelliannau yn cael eu hanfon atoch wrth imi siarad.

The Presiding Officer: We have therefore come to the end of Stage 1 of this Measure. Stage 2 is next, when the Measure will be considered by a committee. As you will recall, because we will all have read Standing Order No. 23 onwards, that stage starts on the first working day after we have completed Stage 1, which we have done today, therefore, there will be an opportunity for Members to table amendments tomorrow for consideration in Stage 2. Guidance on the tabling of amendments is being sent to you as I speak.

Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, at Ddibenion unrhyw ddarpariaethau sy’n deillio o Fesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) 2008, yn Cytuno i unrhyw Gynnydd mewn Gwariant o’r Math y Cyfeirir ato yn Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 23.80 (ii)(c) sy’n Codi o Ganlyniad iddynt
Motion to Propose that the National Assembly for Wales, for the Purposes of any Provisions Resulting from the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, Agrees to any Increase in Expenditure of a Kind referred to in Standing Order No. 23.80(ii)(c) Arising in Consequence Thereof

Y Cofnod

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Cynigiaf fod

The Deputy Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones): I propose that

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, at ddibenion unrhyw ddarpariaethau sy’n deillio o’r Mesur Arfaethedig ynghylch Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru), yn cytuno i unrhyw gynnydd mewn gwariant o’r math y cyfeirir ato yn Rheol Sefydlog 23.80 (ii) (b) ac (c) sy’n codi o ganlyniad iddynt. (NDM3921)

the National Assembly for Wales, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Proposed Learner Travel (Wales) Measure, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order No. 23.80 (ii) (b) and (c) arising in consequence thereof.  (NDM3921)

Y Llywydd: Gwelaf fod pawb yn arwyddo eu cytundeb i’r cynnig. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: I see that everyone is indicating their agreement to the motion. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Motion carried.

 

Dinasyddion yn Llywodraethu
Citizen Governance

Y Cofnod

The Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of William Graham, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Kirsty Williams.

Y Llywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw William Graham, a gwelliannau 2 a 3 yn enw Kirsty Williams.

The Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery (Andrew Davies): I propose that

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus (Andrew Davies): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales welcomes the Assembly Government’s programme of action on citizen-centred service delivery. (NDM3922)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn croesawu rhaglen weithredu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar ddarparu gwasanaethau sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd. (NDM3922)

The Assembly Government and I are committed to high quality citizen-centred public services. We are committed because our shared ambition is to increase equality. This commitment is multidimensional; it is about increasing the income of those with the lowest incomes, which is one of our major priorities, but it is also about increasing the life chances of all our citizens, through the provision of high quality educational provision from the early years, through school, university and lifelong learning. It is about adding years to life through health provision and other policies, so that the greatest health inequalities are tackled and ultimately conquered. It is about taking action as a Government to promote and achieve social justice through our work to eradicate child poverty and family poverty. It is about the way that we care for those seeking asylum. It is about making public services accessible to all, making them efficient and effective, and, above all, citizen-centred.

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a minnau wedi ymrwymo i wasanaethau cyhoeddus o safon uchel sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd. Yr ydym wedi ymrwymo oherwydd y mae gennym uchelgais gyffredin i wella cydraddoldeb. Mae sawl dimensiwn i’r ymrwymiad hwn; mae’n ymwneud â chynyddu incwm y rhai sydd ar incwm isel, sy’n un o’n prif flaenoriaethau, ond mae hefyd yn ymwneud â chynyddu cyfleoedd bywyd ein holl ddinasyddion, drwy ddarparu addysg o safon uchel o’r blynyddoedd cynnar, drwy’r ysgol, y brifysgol a dysgu gydol oes. Mae’n ymwneud ag ychwanegu blynyddoedd at fywyd drwy ddarpariaeth iechyd a pholisïau eraill, er mwyn mynd i’r afael â’r anghydraddoldebau iechyd mwyaf a’u goresgyn yn y pen draw. Mae’n ymwneud â chymryd camau fel Llywodraeth i hybu a sicrhau cyfiawnder cymdeithasol drwy ein gwaith i ddileu tlodi ymhlith plant a thlodi ymhlith teuluoedd. Mae’n ymwneud â sicrhau bod gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar gael i bawb, sicrhau eu bod yn effeithlon ac yn effeithiol, ac, yn anad dim, mae’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd.

High-quality public services are part of the rights of citizens in a civilised society. They are part of a full-membership society and of each of our communities; without them, that membership is compromised. They express our responsibility to provide for each others’ needs through Government action.

Mae gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o safon uchel yn rhan o hawliau dinasyddion mewn cymdeithas wâr. Maent yn rhan o gymdeithas lle y ceir aelodaeth gyflawn ac o bob un o’n cymunedau; hebddynt, caiff yr aelodaeth honno ei pheryglu. Maent yn mynegi’r cyfrifoldeb sydd gennym i ddarparu ar gyfer anghenion ein gilydd drwy weithredu gan y Llywodraeth.

The creation of a new set of citizen rights in Wales since 1999 has been a key theme of the Assembly Government—a set of rights that are, as far as possible, free at the point of use, universal, and unconditional. The First Minister has, on many occasions, indicated our commitment to such an approach. We have nurtured policy innovations such as free school milk for the youngest children, a free nursery place for every three-year-old, free prescriptions, free entry to museums and galleries for all of our citizens, and, of course, free local bus travel for older people and disabled people. These, and other policies, reflect the values of the One Wales Government. As the First Minister argued only two weeks ago at the welfare reform conference, following what is now approaching a decade of devolution, 130,000 extra jobs have been created in the Welsh economy, our unemployment rate has moved from 7.7 per cent in 1999—well above the UK average—to 4.9 per cent, which is significantly below the UK average.

Bu creu set newydd o hawliau’r dinesydd yng Nghymru ers 1999 yn un o themâu allweddol Llywodraeth y Cynulliad—set o hawliau sydd, hyd y mae hynny’n bosibl, am ddim yn y man defnyddio, yn gyffredinol, ac yn ddiamod. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi mynegi ein hymrwymiad i ddull o’r fath droeon. Yr ydym wedi meithrin polisïau arloesol megis llaeth am ddim yn yr ysgolion ar gyfer y plant ieuengaf, lleoedd am ddim mewn meithrinfeydd i bob plentyn tair oed, presgripsiynau am ddim, mynediad am ddim i amgueddfeydd ac orielau i bob dinesydd, ac, wrth gwrs, siwrneiau am ddim ar fysiau lleol i bobl hŷn ac i bobl anabl. Mae’r polisïau hyn, ymhlith eraill, yn adlewyrchu gwerthoedd Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un. Fel y dadleuodd y Prif Weinidog bythefnos yn ôl yn y gynhadledd ar ddiwygio’r gyfundrefn les, yn sgîl degawd bron o ddatganoli, mae 130,000 o swyddi ychwanegol wedi’u creu yn economi Cymru, mae ein cyfradd diweithdra wedi newid o 7.7 y cant yn 1999—a oedd yn uwch o lawer na chyfartaledd y DU—i 4.9 y cant, sy’n llawer is na chyfartaledd y DU.

This continuing improvement in economic performance improves the economic rights of our citizens and deserves to be matched by improvements in the social rights of our citizens. Both parties on the Government side have long held the commitment to a citizen settlement that enhances security, meets social needs, and confers on us and our fellow citizens evolving and increasing rights. However, we want to further enhance these rights through this social contract between the Welsh Assembly Government and the people of Wales. However, it is only through the continuous improvement of public services that we continue to do so.

Mae’r gwelliant parhaus hwn ym mherfformiad yr economi’n gwella hawliau economaidd ein dinasyddion ac mae’n teilyngu gwelliannau yn hawliau cymdeithasol ein dinasyddion yn ogystal. Mae’r ddwy blaid sydd ar ochr y Llywodraeth wedi arddel ymrwymiad ers tro byd i setliad ar gyfer dinasyddion a fydd yn gwella diogelwch, yn diwallu anghenion cymdeithasol ac a fydd yn rhoi inni ac i’n cyd ddinasyddion hawliau sy’n datblygu ac yn cynyddu. Fodd bynnag, yr ydym am wella rhagor ar yr hawliau hyn drwy’r contract cymdeithasol hwn rhwng Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a phobl Cymru. Fodd bynnag, dim ond drwy wella’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus y parhawn i wneud hynny.

I make no excuses for using the language of a social contract. As a Government, we understand that citizen rights are the bedfellows of citizen responsibilities. The two sides of the politics of mutuality are the hallmark of the One Wales Government. We favour a successful mixed economy and a social contract with citizens that promotes greater equality and which enhances the ability of individuals and communities to be self-generating and self-supporting, enjoying rising standards as the fruit of their own endeavours—sometimes aided by us. As the First Minister has recently argued, these policies aim to achieve a decent quality of life but are also, and particularly, aimed at easing the transition from welfare to work and contributing to the continuing growth of the Welsh economy. The willingness of our citizens to grasp these responsibilities is the other side of the mutuality coin of that Welsh social contract. This contract is met, and will continue to be met, by citizens taking advantage of a policy programme that amounts to a hand up and not a handout.

Nid wyf am wneud dim esgusion dros ddefnyddio iaith contract cymdeithasol. Fel Llywodraeth, deallwn fod cyfrifoldebau dinasyddion yn canlyn hawliau dinasyddion. Y ddwy ochr i wleidyddiaeth cydymddibyniaeth yw nod amgen Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un. Yr ydym o blaid economi gymysg lwyddiannus a chontract cymdeithasol gyda’r dinasyddion a fydd yn hybu mwy o gydraddoldeb ac a fydd yn gwella gallu unigolion a chymunedau i’w hadfywio eu hunain a’u cynnal eu hunain, gan fwynhau safonau sy’n codi, sy’n ffrwyth eu hymdrechion eu hunain—a hynny gyda’n cymorth ninnau weithiau. Fel y dadleuodd y Prif Weinidog yn ddiweddar, mae’r polisïau yn ceisio sicrhau ansawdd bywyd da gan anelu hefyd, ac yn arbennig, at hwyluso’r pontio rhwng budd-daliadau a gwaith a chyfrannu at dwf economi Cymru. Parodrwydd ar ran ein dinasyddion i ymafael yn y cyfrifoldebau hyn yw’r ochr arall i gydymddibyniaeth y contract cymdeithasol hwnnw yng Nghymru. Mae’r contract hwn yn cael ei gyflawni, a bydd yn parhau i gael ei gyflawni, gan ddinasyddion a fydd yn manteisio ar raglen bolisi sy’n cynnig cymorth yn hytrach na chardod.

Others also have responsibilities in this social contract: our partners in local government, the third, or voluntary, sector, the national health service, and the private sector bear the responsibility of delivery or of aligning their aspirations with those of the Government. In line with the recommendations of the Beecham report, and following studies of effective delivery, but above all rooted in the social values of this Government, we are investing in a programme of action to deliver efficient, effective, citizen-centred and high-quality public services. We are in the new phase of this agenda. We are fulfilling our 'One Wales’ commitment to put in place a strategy for the continual improvement of local services for our public service improvement programme. This programme is complementary to the service improvement agendas of portfolio departments that I have alluded to. The engine and the policy framework for the improvement programme are the citizen model on the one hand and the Wales spatial plan on the other.

Mae gan eraill gyfrifoldebau yn y contract cymdeithasol hwn hefyd: mae cyfrifoldeb gan ein partneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol, y trydydd sector neu’r sector gwirfoddol, y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, a’r sector preifat i gyflawni neu gysoni eu dyheadau â rhai’r Llywodraeth. Yn unol ag argymhellion adroddiad Beecham, ac yn dilyn astudiaethau ynghylch cyflenwi effeithiol, ond yn bennaf oll a’n gwreiddiau’n ddwfn yng ngwerthoedd cymdeithasol y Llywodraeth hon, yr ydym yn buddsoddi mewn rhaglen weithredu i gyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus effeithlon ac effeithiol sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd ac o safon uchel. Yr ydym wedi cyrraedd cyfnod newydd yn yr agenda hon. Yr ydym yn cyflawni’r ymrwymiad sydd gennym yn 'Cymru’n Un’ i roi strategaeth ar waith i wella gwasanaethau lleol yn barhaus ar gyfer y rhaglen sydd gennym i wella’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae’r rhaglen hon yn ategu agendâu gwella gwasanaethau yr adrannau portffolio y cyfeiriais atynt. Yr hyn sy’n rhoi’r rhaglen wella ar waith, a’r fframwaith polisi iddi, yw model y dinesydd ar y naill law a chynllun gofodol Cymru ar y llall.

The citizen model encapsulates our vision of what we want public services to be: focused on citizens’ individual and collective needs, engaging citizens in their development, but, above all, being increasingly confident, innovative, efficient and effective. We have distilled the citizen model into seven governance principles for all public services in Wales. First, putting the citizen first; second, knowing who does what, and why, among service providers; third, engaging with others in partnership; fourth, living public service values, particularly with the emerging and developing Welsh public service ethos; fifth, fostering innovative delivery; sixth, being a learning organisation; and seventh, achieving value for money.

Mae model y dinesydd yn crisialu ein gweledigaeth ynghylch yr hyn yr ydym am ei weld yn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus: canolbwyntio ar anghenion dinasyddion yn unigol ac ar y cyd, ymgysylltu â’r dinasyddion yn eu datblygiad, ond, yn anad dim, bod yn fwyfwy hyderus, arloesol, effeithlon ac effeithiol. Yr ydym wedi trosi model y dinesydd yn saith o egwyddorion llywodraethu ar gyfer holl wasanaethau cyhoeddus Cymru. Yn gyntaf oll, rhoi blaenoriaeth i’r dinesydd; yn ail, gwybod pwy sy’n gwneud beth, a pham, ymhlith darparwyr y gwasanaethau; yn drydydd, ymgysylltu ag eraill mewn partneriaeth; yn bedwerydd, gwerthoedd byw yn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, yn enwedig o ran ethos gwasanaeth cyhoeddus Cymru, sy’n codi ac yn datblygu; yn bumed, meithrin dulliau cyflenwi arloesol; yn chweched, bod yn sefydliad sy’n dysgu; ac yn seithfed, sicrhau gwerth am arian.

These seven principles form a framework for this Government’s improvement agenda. They are simple to state, but are proving to be potentially transformative when applied.

Mae’r saith egwyddor hyn yn fframwaith ar gyfer agenda wella’r Llywodraeth. Maent yn hawdd eu datgan, ond gallant fod yn drawsffurfiol o’u rhoi ar waith.

4.20 p.m.

 

A pillar of the improvement agenda is a three-year programme of citizen-centred governance assessments, assisting public service organisations and partnerships to apply these principles systematically and consistently to all services in Wales. A similar programme of reviews has largely been completed for the national health service and we are taking the opportunity to learn from that embryonic experience.

Un o gonglfeini’r agenda wella yw rhaglen dair blynedd o asesiadau ynghylch llywodraethu sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd, a fydd yn cynorthwyo’r sefydliadau gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a’r partneriaethau i gymhwyso’r egwyddorion hyn yn systematig ac yn gyson i bob gwasanaeth yng Nghymru. Mae rhaglen gyffelyb o adolygiadau wedi ei chwblhau fwy neu lai ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol ac yr ydym yn manteisio ar y cyfle i ddysgu o’r profiad cychwynnol hwnnw.

The citizen-centred governance assessments will be citizen-centred, they will be conducted on an area by area basis, working within the boundaries of the Wales spatial plan and the emerging local service board areas. I have asked my officials to work in partnership with local public service leaders to assess how well key services live up to the governance principles that I described and to identify together where improvement may be needed. This partnership with public service deliverers is genuine. An important part of the programme is the identification and sharing of innovations and feeding back to the Assembly Government where there are barriers to effective service delivery. Officials will report regularly to spatial plan Ministers and I know that my colleagues and I will all welcome ideas to overcome obstacles to improvement.

Bydd yr asesiadau ynghylch llywodraethu sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd yn canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd, cânt eu cynnal ar sail ardaloedd unigol, gan weithio o fewn terfynau cynllun gofodol Cymru ac ardaloedd y byrddau gwasanaethau lleol newydd. Gofynnais i’m swyddogion weithio mewn partneriaeth gydag arweinwyr lleol y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i asesu pa mor dda y mae’r gwasanaethau allweddol yn cyflawni’r egwyddorion llywodraethu a ddisgrifiais a nodi ar y cyd y meysydd lle y gall fod angen gwella. Mae hon yn bartneriaeth wirioneddol gyda chyflenwyr y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Rhan bwysig o’r rhaglen yw nodi a rhannu arloesedd a hysbysu Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ynglŷn â’r pethau sy’n rhwystr i gyflenwi gwasanaethau effeithiol. Bydd y swyddogion yn cyflwyno adroddiadau rheolaidd i Weinidogion y cynllun gofodol a gwn y bydd fy nghyd-Weinidogion a minnau’n croesawu syniadau ynglŷn â sut y mae goresgyn pethau sy’n rhwystro gwelliannau.

This programme of assessments is tied directly into the other initiatives being taken forward within my portfolio to deliver the citizen model. First, the local service boards are building high-performance partnerships at the local level, which can integrate services and deliver better outcomes for the communities that they serve. Performance Wales is developing national standards and a better measurement and objective analysis to demonstrate where providers can do better. Thirdly, Citizens First Wales is developing new models of citizen access and engagement and developing better customer service, as well as better information and greater transparency on citizen satisfaction—most recently the publication of the Living in Wales survey.

Mae’r rhaglen asesiadau’n uniongyrchol gysylltiedig â’r mentrau eraill sy’n mynd rhagddynt o fewn fy mhortffolio i gyflawni model y dinesydd. Yn gyntaf, mae’r byrddau gwasanaethau lleol yn meithrin partneriaethau sy’n perfformio’n rhagorol ar lefel leol, a all gyfannu gwasanaethau a sicrhau gwell canlyniadau ar gyfer y cymunedau y maent yn eu gwasanaethu. Mae Perfformio Cymru wrthi’n datblygu safonau cenedlaethol a dull gwell o fesur a dadansoddiad gwrthrychol i ddangos sut y gall y darparwyr wneud yn well. Yn drydydd, mae Dinasyddion yn Gyntaf Cymru wrthi’n datblygu modelau newydd o ran mynediad ac ymgysylltu i ddinasyddion ac yn datblygu gwell gwasanaeth i’r cwsmeriaid, ynghyd â gwell gwybodaeth a mwy o dryloywder ynghylch bodlonrwydd y dinasyddion—sef yn fwyaf diweddar cyhoeddi arolwg Byw yng Nghymru.

The next area is Value Wales, which is helping public services to operate more efficiently in order to devote more resources to front-line services. Public Service Management Wales is helping public service leaders at all levels to be better and more ambitious leaders and managers. Also, through the inspectorate forum, the Wales Audit Office, Estyn, the Care and Social Services Inspectorate for Wales and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, we are developing policies to become more citizen-centred and better aligned to the improvement agenda.

Y maes nesaf yw Gwerth Cymru, sy’n helpu’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus i weithredu’n fwy effeithlon er mwyn rhoi mwy o adnoddau i wasanaethau’r rheng flaen. Mae Rheoli yng Ngwasanaeth Cyhoeddus Cymru’n helpu arweinwyr y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ar bob lefel i fod yn arweinwyr ac yn rheolwyr gwell a mwy uchelgeisiol. Hefyd, drwy fforwm yr arolygiaethau, Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, Estyn, Arolygiaeth Gofal a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol Cymru ac Arolygiaeth Gofal Iechyd Cymru, yr ydym yn datblygu polisïau i wneud inni ganolbwyntio mwy ar y dinesydd a bod yn fwy cyson â’r agenda wella.

I know that Brian Gibbons, the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government, is also supporting improvements in scrutiny and governance within local authorities. He and I have identified opportunities to embed the messages of citizen-centred governance through wider local government policy processes.

Gwn fod Brian Gibbons, y Gweinidog dros Gyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a Llywodraeth Leol, hefyd yn cefnogi gwelliannau mewn craffu a llywodraethu yn yr awdurdodau lleol. Yr ydym ein dau wedi nodi cyfleoedd i blannu negeseuon llywodraethu sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd ym mhrosesau polisi ehangach llywodraeth leol.

The final strand of the public service improvement programme is the Wales spatial plan. Here, we are establishing the blueprint for collaborative and strategic service provision, tailored to the needs of different parts of Wales. We have six such areas and each one has a lead spatial plan Cabinet Minister to oversee the development of the programme in their area. We are just concluding our round of consultations on the next stage of the plan, entitled 'People, Places, Futures’.

Yr elfen olaf yn rhaglen wella’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yw cynllun gofodol Cymru. Yn hyn o beth, yr ydym yn sefydlu’r glasbrint ar gyfer darparu gwasanaethau mewn modd cydweithrediadol a strategol, wedi’i deilwra at anghenion gwahanol rannau o Gymru. Mae gennym chwe ardal ac mae gan bob un ohonynt Weinidog yn y Cabinet sy’n arwain ar y cynllun gofodol i oruchwylio datblygu’r rhaglen yn eu hardal. Yr ydym ar fin cwblhau ein cylch o ymgynghoriadau ynglŷn â cham nesaf y cynllun, sydd â’r teitl 'Pobl, Lleoedd, Dyfodol’.

All of these initiatives are innovative. They develop new ways to tackle big challenges in public services, and will continue to do so, particularly over this term of the National Assembly. This programme of action on citizen-centred service delivery is radical and comprehensive. It is crucial to achieving an equality of opportunity and increasing equality of outcome for all the people of Wales, which is the core motivating commitment of this Government. On that basis, I ask Members for their support today.

Mae’r mentrau hyn i gyd yn arloesol. Maent yn datblygu ffyrdd newydd o fynd i’r afael â heriau mawr yn y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, a byddant yn parhau i wneud hynny, yn enwedig yn ystod tymor hwn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol. Mae’r rhaglen weithredu hon ynghylch cyflenwi gwasanaethau gan ganolbwyntio ar y dinesydd yn radical ac yn gynhwysfawr. Mae’n hanfodol o ran sicrhau cyfle cyfartal a chynyddu canlyniadau cyfartal ar gyfer pawb yng Nghymru, sef yr ymrwymiad creiddiol sy’n ysgogi’r Llywodraeth hon. Ar sail hynny, gofynnaf i’r Aelodau am eu cefnogaeth heddiw.

Mark Isherwood: I propose amendment 1 in the name of William Graham. Add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Mark Isherwood: Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw William Graham. Ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

regrets the Assembly Government's failure to deliver services with, rather than for, the people.

yn gresynu bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi methu darparu gwasanaethau gyda’r bobl yn hytrach nag ar eu cyfer.

Representative democracy should engage citizens in decision-making processes. Citizen governance is about empowering communities, raising local accountability and better governance of local service delivery. If we are to reverse the reduction in voter turnout and safeguard our electoral democracy we must reconnect citizens with government.

Dylai democratiaeth gynrychioliadol gynnwys y dinasyddion yn y prosesau penderfynu. Mae a wnelo dinasyddion yn llywodraethu â grymuso cymunedau, cynyddu atebolrwydd lleol a llywodraethu cyflenwi gwasanaethau lleol yn well. Os ydym am wrthdroi’r dirywiad yn y niferoedd sy’n pleidleisio a diogelu ein democratiaeth etholiadol rhaid ailgysylltu’r dinasyddion â llywodraeth.

Transparency about Government spending will allow citizens to take a more active role, delivering efficiency and value for money. In the bureaucratic era—the current era—Government tells you what you need. The Conservatives propose a post-bureaucratic era in which money is spent on what people want.

Bydd tryloywder ynghylch gwariant y Llywodraeth yn caniatáu i’r dinasyddion chwarae rhan fwy gweithredol, gan sicrhau effeithlonrwydd a gwerth am arian. Yn yr oes fiwrocrataidd—yr oes bresennol—mae’r Llywodraeth yn dweud wrthych beth y mae ei angen arnoch. Mae’r Ceidwadwyr yn cynnig cyfnod ôl-fiwrocrataidd lle y caiff arian ei wario ar yr hyn y mae ar bobl ei eisiau.

However, the Labour-led Assembly Government has a track record of sham consultations, which ride roughshod over public opinion. Our amendment 1, therefore, regrets the Assembly Government’s failure to deliver services with, rather than for, the people.

Fodd bynnag, mae gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad dan arweiniad Llafur hanes o gynnal ymgynghoriadau ffug, sy’n amharchu’r farn gyhoeddus. Mae ein gwelliant 1, felly, yn gresynu at y ffaith bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi methu darparu gwasanaethau gyda’r bobl yn hytrach nag ar eu cyfer.

In its 'Designed for Life’ document on hospital reconfiguration, the Assembly Government stated that it would,

Yn ei dogfen 'Cynllun Oes’ ynghylch ailgyflunio’r ysbytai, dywedodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad y byddai,

'promote the active participation of citizens and communities in service development.’

yn annog dinasyddion a chymunedau i gymryd rhan weithredol yn natblygiad gwasanaethau.

It talked about making decisions with, rather than for, the public. However, it failed to keep its promise. Research carried out by Together Creating Communities in north Wales showed that fewer than 2 per cent of people were aware that major changes were being planned to their health services. Some 86 per cent were unaware that local health boards were holding public consultations, but 89 per cent said that they would have attended those consultations if they had been aware of them. Community health councils complained that they had seen little evidence of clinical governance and resourcing having been discussed in any great depth. Nurses, care homes, hospices and charities complained that they had not been consulted. Mass protests about this are the reason why the current Minister for Health and Social Services—a Minister in the last Assembly Government—has become the Minister of reviews and re-consultations.

Soniai am wneud penderfyniadau gyda’r cyhoedd yn hytrach nag ar eu cyfer. Fodd bynnag, methodd gadw ei haddewid. Dengys ymchwil a wnaethpwyd gan Together Creating Communities yn y gogledd fod llai na 2 y cant yn gwybod bod newidiadau mawr yn yr arfaeth yn eu gwasanaethau iechyd. Ni wyddai tua 86 y cant fod byrddau iechyd lleol yn ymgynghori’n gyhoeddus, ond dywedodd 89 y cant y byddent wedi mynd i’r cyfarfodydd ymgynghorol pe gwybuasent amdanynt. Cwynai cynghorau iechyd cymuned nad oeddent wedi gweld fawr ddim tystiolaeth o drafod manwl ar lywodraethu clinigol ac adnoddau. Cwynai nyrsys, cartrefi, hosbisau ac elusennau nad ymgynghorwyd â hwy. Y protestio mawr ynglŷn â hyn yw’r rheswm pam y mae’r Gweinidog cyfredol dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol—a fu’n Weinidog yn Llywodraeth ddiwethaf y Cynulliad—wedi mynd yn Weinidog adolygiadau ac ailymgynghori.

The Assembly Government’s plans for the A494 in Flintshire gave little thought to the communities along the route. Residents’ groups took action when denied proper consultation. There was little discussion on the objectives, and no realistic projection of future need. Despite concerns that the proposals would bring heavy traffic and air pollution close to homes, schools, retirement homes and a hospital, the Assembly Government has consistently refused to submit its proposals to a health impact assessment. It was only when local Labour politicians realised that this was a vote loser, ahead of last year’s Assembly election, that it jumped on board. The Assembly Government agreed to a public inquiry, after cross-party Assembly Members had presented hundreds of letters calling for it.

Yng nghynlluniau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer yr A494 yn sir y Fflint nid ystyriwyd y cymunedau sydd gerllaw’r ffordd. Bu grwpiau preswylwyr yn gweithredu oherwydd nad ymgynghorwyd yn briodol â hwy. Prin fu’r trafod ynglŷn â’r amcanion, ac ni fu dim rhagamcanion realistig o anghenion y dyfodol. Er y pryderon y byddai’r cynigion yn creu traffig trwm ac yn llygru’r awyr yn agos at gartrefi, ysgolion, cartrefi ymddeol ac ysbyty, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn gyson wedi gwrthod cynnal asesiad effeithiau iechyd ynghylch ei chynigion. Nid ildiodd nes i wleidyddion Llafur lleol sylweddoli, cyn etholiad y Cynulliad y llynedd, y byddai hyn yn arwain at golli pleidleisiau. Cydsyniodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ag ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, ar ôl i Aelodau Cynulliad trawsbleidiol gyflwyno cannoedd o lythyrau a alwai am hynny.

Contrast this with the Assembly Government’s refusal to grant a public inquiry on the Warren Hall development in Flintshire after I alone had presented it with hundreds of local residents’ letters calling for a public inquiry. After the A494 plans were rejected, campaigners wrote to the Assembly Government, asking for an opportunity for public input into the outline design stage, to avoid superfluous expense on the design of a scheme that might necessitate a further public inquiry. Surprise, surprise—the Assembly Government response sidestepped the question.

Cymharwch hyn â’r ffaith bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi gwrthod caniatáu ymchwiliad cyhoeddus ynglŷn â datblygiad Warren Hall yn sir y Fflint ar ôl i mi yn unig gyflwyno cannoedd o lythyrau iddi gan breswylwyr lleol yn galw am ymchwiliad cyhoeddus. Ar ôl i gynlluniau’r A494 gael eu gwrthod ysgrifennodd ymgyrchwyr at Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, gan ofyn am gyfle i’r cyhoedd gael cyfrannu at y cam dylunio amlinellol, er mwyn osgoi costau diangen ar ddylunio cynllun y gallai fod angen ymchwiliad cyhoeddus arall yn ei gylch. Dyna i chi syndod—yn ei hymateb osgodd Lywodraeth y Cynulliad ateb y cwestiwn.

Residents’ groups across Wales submitted petitions on the three regional waste plans to the Assembly’s Petitions Committee, stating that the so-called consultation exercise was nothing more than a public relations exercise, that plans were being steamrollered through to the detriment of the health of thousands of people, and that public awareness of the consultation had been minimal. The Petitions Committee determined that this was a cross-cutting issue, involving public consultation in the way that the Assembly Government approached it, and that the Members’ research service should be commissioned to undertake research into what the Assembly Government was doing, and into best practice elsewhere.

Cyflwynodd grwpiau preswylwyr ar draws Cymru ddeisebau ynghylch y tri chynllun rhanbarthol sy’n ymwneud â gwastraff  i Bwyllgor Deisebau’r Cynulliad, gan ddatgan nad oedd yr ymgynghori bondigrybwyll yn ddim mwy nag ymarferiad cysylltiadau cyhoeddus, fod y cynlluniau’n cael eu gorfodi gan wneud niwed i iechyd miloedd o bobl, ac mai bach iawn fu’r ymwybyddiaeth gyhoeddus o’r ymgynghori. Penderfynodd y Pwyllgor Deisebau fod hwn yn fater trawsbynciol, a oedd yn golygu ymgynghori cyhoeddus ynghylch y ffordd yr oedd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ymwneud ag ef, ac y dylid comisiynu gwasanaeth ymchwil yr Aelodau i wneud ymchwil i’r hyn yr oedd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn ei wneud, ac i’r arferion gorau mewn lleoedd eraill.

In her statement on neurosurgery last July, the Minister for Health and Social Services stated that she would look as actively as possible at redirecting additional elective work generated inside Wales to the two centres in Swansea and Cardiff. She had failed to consult, and the resulting uproar in north Wales forced her to commission a neurosurgery review. Last month’s independent report on neurosurgery and other specialist services for north Wales stated that this bizarre proposal should be firmly rejected by the Assembly, saying that the Minister’s standard response to objectors that they are scaremongering is patronising.

Yn ei datganiad ynglŷn â niwrolawdriniaeth fis Gorffennaf diwethaf, dywedodd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol y byddai’n gwneud hynny a allai i ystyried ailgyfeirio gwaith dewisol sy’n deillio o Gymru i’r ddwy ganolfan yn Abertawe ac yng Nghaerdydd. Nid ymgynghorodd, ac yn sgîl y storm a ddilynodd yn y gogledd fe’i gorfodwyd i gomisiynu adolygiad ar niwrolawdriniaeth. Dywedwyd yn yr adroddiad annibynnol ynghylch niwrolawdriniaeth a gwasanaethau arbenigol eraill yn y gogledd y mis diwethaf y dylai’r Cynulliad wrthod y cynnig rhyfedd hwn yn llwyr, gan ddweud bod yr ymateb arferol gan y Gweinidog i wrthwynebwyr, sef eu bod yn codi bwganod, yn nawddoglyd.

Only this week, housing associations have told me that Welsh local authorities have been informed by the Assembly Government that there will be no new funding for the homebuy low-cost home ownership scheme, adding that this is a terrible situation to have developed without any consultation with the sector. So much for citizen governance from this Labour-led Assembly Government and its Plaid Cymru fellow travellers, whose substitution of words for action has caused so much damage to the body politic in Wales.

Yr wythnos hon, dywedodd cymdeithasau tai wrthyf fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi hysbysu awdurdodau lleol Cymru na fydd arian newydd ar gyfer y cynllun cymorth prynu perchentyaeth cost isel, gan ychwanegu bod hon yn sefyllfa enbyd o ran ei bod wedi datblygu heb ddim ymgynghori â’r sector. Naw wfft i ddinasyddion yn llywodraethu gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad dan arweiniad Llafur a’i chanlynwyr ym Mhlaid Cymru, y mae’r ffaith iddynt roi geiriau yn lle gweithredu wedi peri cymaint o niwed i wleidyddiaeth Cymru.

Jenny Randerson: I propose the following amendments in the name of Kirsty Williams. Amendment 2: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Jenny Randerson: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Kirsty Williams. Gwelliant 2: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

believes that in order to deliver actual citizen-centred services more power should be devolved to local government and communities with less power concentrated in the hands of Welsh Ministers.

yn credu er mwyn darparu gwasanaethau sy’n wirioneddol ganolbwyntio ar y dinesydd y dylid datganoli mwy o bŵer i lywodraeth leol a chymunedau a chanoli llai o bŵer yn nwylo Gweinidogion Cymru.

Amendment 3: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 3: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

regrets the Welsh Assembly Government’s centralising agenda for public services.

yn gresynu wrth agenda ganoli Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.

This is an interesting choice of debate on what is virtually the eve of local elections. I will start on a note of humility, which I believe we should all share. If you look at the field of candidates in the local elections, you have the four major political parties, and several minor political parties.

Dyma ddewis dadl ddifyr ar drothwy’r etholiadau lleol. Yr wyf am ddechrau gyda thinc o wyleidd-dra, y credaf y dylem oll ei rannu. Os edrychwch ar yr ymgeiswyr yn yr etholiadau lleol, gwelwch fod y pedair prif blaid wleidyddol, a nifer o fân bleidiau gwleidyddol.

4.30 p.m.

 

You have political parties with a regional, local base such as People’s Voice and you have the independents, who, in some areas, seem more like a party and in others are just lone independents. If you combine that with yet another party, which I call 'the voter apathy’ party—it is sometimes more correctly named 'the voter discontent’ party—which means a low turnout in local elections, then virtually all councillors are elected on a minority of the vote. That also applies to all of us here, because the turnout for the Assembly elections is nothing for any of us to be proud of. We have a moral obligation, therefore, to connect with the public and to consult with people systematically. That means not just listening to those who shout the loudest, but consulting with the public at every level.

Mae gennych bleidiau gwleidyddol sydd â sylfaen ranbarthol, leol fel Llais y Bobl ac annibynwyr sydd, mewn rhai ardaloedd, yn ymddangos yn debycach i blaid ac nad ydynt mewn eraill yn ddim ond annibynwyr ar eu pennau eu hunain. Os ychwanegwch blaid arall eto atynt, a alwaf yn blaid 'difaterwch yr etholwyr’—fe’i gelwir weithiau’n fwy cywir yn blaid 'anfodlonrwydd yr etholwyr’—sy’n golygu mai ychydig sy’n pleidleisio mewn etholiadau lleol, yna etholir bron pob un o’r cynghorwyr drwy bleidlais y lleiafrif. Mae hynny’n wir hefyd am bob un ohonom sydd yma, gan nad oes gan yr un ohonom le i ymfalchïo yn y niferoedd sy’n pleidleisio yn etholiadau’r Cynulliad. Yr ydym dan rwymedigaeth foesol, felly, i ymgysylltu â’r cyhoedd ac ymgynghori â phobl yn systematig. Mae hynny’n golygu nid yn unig gwrando ar y rhai sy’n gweiddi uchaf, ond ymgynghori â’r cyhoedd ar bob lefel.

I very much welcome the belated moves by the Welsh Assembly Government to improve scrutiny in local government. The situation that the Welsh Liberal Democrats in Cardiff inherited from its Labour predecessors—there was a winner-takes-all approach—was atrocious. There were secret cabinet meetings, and a process that ensured that all chairs of scrutiny committees were Labour members—that, incidentally, applies to all Labour-run authorities throughout Wales. We have done a considerable amount in Cardiff to open things up. We have opened up cabinet meetings so that other parties can attend and we have call-in procedures so that any councillor can ensure that a cabinet decision is called into the scrutiny committee, and the chairs are divided up between the parties.

Croesawaf yn fawr y camau hwyr gan Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i wella’r craffu mewn llywodraeth leol. Yr oedd y sefyllfa a etifeddodd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yng Nghaerdydd gan eu rhagflaenwyr Llafur—trechaf treisied, gwannaf gwaedded oedd yr agwedd—yn un warthus. Cynhelid cyfarfodydd cabinet dirgel, ac yr oedd proses a sicrhâi fod holl gadeiryddion y pwyllgorau craffu’n aelodau Llafur—mae hynny, gyda llaw, yn wir am yr holl awdurdodau sy’n cael eu rhedeg gan Lafur ledled Cymru. Yr ydym wedi gwneud cryn dipyn yng Nghaerdydd i hyrwyddo gweithredu agored. Yr ydym wedi cynnal cyfarfodydd cabinet yn agored fel y gall pleidiau eraill fod yn bresennol ac mae gennym weithdrefnau galw i mewn fel y gall unrhyw gynghorydd sicrhau y gelwir penderfyniad gan y cabinet i mewn i’r pwyllgor craffu, ac mae’r cadeiryddiaethau’n cael eu rhannu ymysg y pleidiau.

I want to look at the effect of Labour’s policy, because by deliberately excluding opposition politicians it also excluded the public. It has taken quite a long time, particularly for the South Wales Echo, to understand that consulting means just that and that if the comments coming back are critical, then the decision will be looked at, amended or even dropped altogether. That is not a sign of weakness, but of strength.

Dymunaf edrych ar effaith polisi Llafur, oherwydd drwy gau allan wleidyddion y gwrthbleidiau’n fwriadol, caeodd y cyhoedd allan hefyd. Mae wedi cymryd cryn amser, yn enwedig i’r South Wales Echo, i sylweddoli bod ymgynghori’n golygu ymgynghori ac, os yw’r sylwadau sy’n dod yn ôl yn feirniadol, yr edrychir ar y penderfyniad, ei newid neu hyd yn oed ei ddileu’n gyfan gwbl. Nid arwydd o wendid yw hynny, ond arwydd o gryfder.

I find the title of this debate rather curious. Minister, I listened with great interest to your charter. The seven commandments will not trip off the tongue of the electors in the pub on Friday night, but the principles sound great. However, we must have more than warm words and the Labour-Plaid coalition here is, I fear, rapidly moving in the wrong direction. It is becoming more remote from people, taking power away from the people, and adopting a centralising, top-down approach. Just consider the edict on not having junk food in vending machines in hospitals. There was no consultation on how that will impact on staff and patients in individual hospitals.

Yr wyf yn gweld teitl y ddadl hon yn rhyfedd braidd. Weinidog, gwrandewais gyda diddordeb mawr ar eich siarter. Ni fydd y saith gorchymyn ar flaen tafod yr etholwyr yn y dafarn nos Wener, ond mae’r egwyddorion yn swnio’n wych. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gael mwy na geiriau hynaws ac mae arnaf ofn bod y glymblaid rhwng Llafur a Phlaid Cymru yn y fan hon yn symud i’r cyfeiriad anghywir. Mae’n mynd yn bellach oddi wrth bobl, yn mynd â phŵer oddi ar y bobl, ac yn mabwysiadu dull sy’n canoli, gan weithredu o’r brig i lawr. Nid oes rhaid ond ystyried y gorchymyn ynghylch peidio â rhoi bwyd sothach mewn peiriannau gwerthu mewn ysbytai. Ni fu ymgynghori ynghylch sut y bydd hynny’n effeithio ar staff a chleifion mewn ysbytai unigol.

The Welsh Liberal Democrats believe that we in Wales should trust people more. That means that we have to live with the fact that decisions will vary from one area to another because, for example, Brecon is very different from Cardiff. We have to accept that people have different priorities in different parts of the country. We have to empower our town and community councils and our unitary authorities to make decisions after consulting with people rather than applying the centralist, socialist rhetoric that I fear we have heard rather too much of from this Government in the last few months.

Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn credu y dylem ni yng Nghymru ymddiried mwy mewn pobl. Mae hynny’n golygu bod yn rhaid inni ddygymod â’r ffaith y bydd penderfyniadau’n amrywio rhwng ardaloedd gwahanol gan fod Aberhonddu, er enghraifft, yn wahanol iawn i Gaerdydd. Rhaid inni dderbyn bod gan bobl wahanol flaenoriaethau mewn gwahanol rannau o’r wlad. Rhaid inni rymuso ein cynghorau tref a chymuned a’n hawdurdodau unedol fel y gallant wneud penderfyniadau ar ôl ymgynghori â phobl yn hytrach na defnyddio’r rhethreg sosialaidd, ganoliaethol y mae arnaf ofn ein bod wedi clywed gormod ohoni braidd gan y Llywodraeth hon yn y misoedd diwethaf.

Bethan Jenkins: I have a short contribution to make. To pick up on what Mark said about the Petitions Committee, far from the Assembly becoming more centralised, I believe that the reverse is true in that people have an input into the National Assembly through the petitions system, and it has been effective in that respect. The e-petitions system has just been updated, and people can access that service.

Bethan Jenkins: Mae gennyf gyfraniad byr i’w wneud. Gan ddilyn yr hyn a ddywedodd Mark am y Pwyllgor Deisebau, yn hytrach na bod y Cynulliad yn mynd yn fwy canoledig, credaf fod y gwrthwyneb yn wir gan fod modd i bobl gyfrannu i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol drwy’r system ddeisebau, ac mae wedi bod yn effeithiol yn hynny o beth. Mae’r system e-ddeisebau newydd gael ei diweddaru, a gall pobl gael ddefnyddio’r gwasanaeth hwnnw.

Mark Isherwood: I concur that the Assembly, thanks in part to our Presiding Officer, has become more open, but we are talking about the Assembly Government, which, as Jenny said, has become a top-down, centralising, socialist diktat-issuing body.

Mark Isherwood: Yr wyf yn derbyn bod y Cynulliad, diolch yn rhannol i’n Llywydd, wedi mynd yn fwy agored, ond yr ydym yn sôn am Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, sydd, fel y dywedodd Jenny, wedi mynd yn gorff sosialaidd sy’n cyhoeddi dictadau, yn canoli ac yn gweithredu o’r brig i lawr.

Bethan Jenkins: I acknowledge that, but I believe that anything that we do via the Petitions Committee will have an impact on the Welsh Assembly Government, and we have been making key recommendations to the Assembly Government that will, in turn, mean that it will be more receptive to change and to the consultations that we carry out as a Petitions Committee. Therefore, I believe that there is scope in that regard for development, and for different sections of society to become involved in politics, from ethnic minority groups, to campaign groups that had not previously heard of the Assembly, to young people, because we are considering going out to visit different schools and areas to see the work that the people who put petitions into the system are doing, and the work that they are doing with us as an Assembly.

Bethan Jenkins: Yr wyf yn cydnabod hynny, ond credaf y bydd unrhyw beth a wnawn drwy’r Pwyllgor Deisebau’n cael effaith ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, ac yr ydym wedi bod yn rhoi argymhellion allweddol i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a fydd yn golygu y bydd yn fwy parod, yn ei thro, i newid ac i ymateb i’r ymgynghoriadau yr ydym yn eu cynnal fel Pwyllgor Deisebau. Felly, yr wyf yn credu bod lle i ddatblygu yn hynny o beth, ac i wahanol rannau o gymdeithas gymryd rhan mewn gwleidyddiaeth, a’r rheini’n amrywio o grwpiau lleiafrifol ethnig i grwpiau ymgyrchu nad oeddent wedi clywed am y Cynulliad o’r blaen, a phobl ifanc, gan ein bod yn ystyried mynd allan i ymweld ag ysgolion ac ardaloedd gwahanol i weld y gwaith a wneir gan y bobl sy’n cyflwyno deisebau, a’r gwaith y maent yn ei wneud gyda ni fel Cynulliad.

The other area that I wanted to touch upon was the new chamber for young people in the National Assembly for Wales. I would like young people to have more of an input into Welsh Assembly Government policies. I would like to hear from the Minister how young people can play a pivotal role in ensuring that their ideas are put into our policies, and are not merely treated as token gestures or written up in documents to be left on the shelf. I note that in relation to the Disabled Children Matter Wales campaign, because I acknowledge the work that the Government is doing with regard to disabled children, but I believe that the voices of disabled children are perhaps muted in all of this, and I would like to see a much more rigorous way of taking on board young disabled children’s concerns.

Y maes arall yr oeddwn am gyfeirio ato oedd y siambr newydd i bobl ifanc yng Nghynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru. Hoffwn weld pobl ifanc yn cyfrannu mwy at bolisïau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru. Hoffwn glywed gan y Gweinidog sut y gall pobl ifanc chwarae rhan ganolog o ran sicrhau bod eu syniadau’n cael eu cynnwys yn ein polisïau, ac na chânt eu trin fel arwyddion symbolaidd yn unig neu eu cofnodi mewn dogfennau a’u gadael ar y silff. Nodaf hynny mewn cysylltiad ag ymgyrch Plant Anabl yn Cyfri Cymru, gan fy mod yn cydnabod y gwaith y mae’r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud mewn cysylltiad â phlant anabl, ond credaf ei bod yn bosibl bod lleisiau plant anabl yn ddistaw yng nghanol hyn i gyd, a hoffwn weld dull llawer mwy trwyadl o ystyried pryderon plant anabl ifanc.

The other issue that I wish to raise relates to Canada. Within the next few days, it has a citizens’ assembly initiative, whereby people are chosen from the electoral roll to sit on citizens’ assemblies. Those assemblies then create new assemblies in their communities. For example, one person will become a specialist in a particular area, such as child poverty, and take on board ideas from other communities. So, instead of there being specialist interest groups or specialist stakeholder groups, the people on the ground become specialists and end up advising the Government. I would like the Minister to look at the information coming from Canada and at how its citizens are becoming much more engaged in politics, in contrast to our just electing councillors every four years and not seeing the benefits of that. This next example does not relate to the Assembly Government, but I believe that IT developments in the National Assembly could prove beneficial for the Government, and I would like it to take on board the ideas of Peter Black, the Commissioner for the Assembly and the Citizen, and of the group established by other Assembly Members with an interest in IT, so that we can develop more interaction via blogs and even social networking facilities, so that we do not just appear to be accountable, but are accountable as a National Assembly and a Government.

Mae’r mater arall y dymunaf ei godi’n ymwneud â Chanada. Yn ystod y dyddiau nesaf, bydd yn rhedeg cynllun cynulliadau dinasyddion, lle y caiff pobl eu dewis o’r rhestr etholwyr i eistedd mewn cynulliadau dinasyddion. Bydd y cynulliadau hynny wedyn yn creu cynulliadau newydd yn eu cymunedau. Er enghraifft, bydd un person yn dod yn arbenigwr mewn maes penodol, fel tlodi plant, ac yn ystyried syniadau gan gymunedau eraill. Felly, yn lle bod grwpiau buddiant arbenigol neu grwpiau rhanddeiliaid arbenigol, mae pobl ar lawr gwlad yn dod yn arbenigwyr ac yn cynghori’r Llywodraeth yn y diwedd. Byddai’n dda gennyf pe byddai’r Gweinidog yn ystyried y wybodaeth sy’n dod o Ganada a sut y mae ei dinasyddion yn cymryd mwy o ran o lawer mewn gwleidyddiaeth, yn groes i’r sefyllfa lle nad ydym ni ond yn ethol cynghorwyr bob pedair blynedd, heb weld manteision yn sgîl hynny. Nid yw’r enghraifft nesaf hon yn ymwneud â Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, ond credaf y gallai datblygiadau mewn technoleg gwybodaeth yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol fod yn llesol i’r Llywodraeth, a hoffwn ei gweld yn ystyried y syniadau sydd gan Peter Black, Comisiynydd y Cynulliad a’r Dinesydd, a’r grŵp a sefydlwyd gan Aelodau eraill o’r Cynulliad sy’n ymddiddori mewn TG, fel y gallwn ddatblygu mwy o ryngweithio drwy flogiau a hyd yn oed cyfleusterau rhwydweithio cymdeithasol, fel y byddwn nid yn unig yn ymddangos yn atebol, ond yn llwyddo i fod yn atebol fel Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ac fel Llywodraeth.

Nick Ramsay: Listening to Bethan Jenkins’s contribution, and thinking back to the Minister’s opening remarks, I am struck by how wide-ranging this debate is. I think that it was Jenny Randerson who said that it was an interesting choice of subject.

Nick Ramsay: Wrth wrando ar gyfraniad Bethan Jenkins, a chofio am sylwadau agoriadol y Gweinidog, synnaf mor gynhwysfawr ydyw’r ddadl hon. Credaf mai Jenny Randerson a ddywedodd fod y pwnc sydd wedi’i ddewis yn un diddorol.

I express my support for the amendments tabled to the motion. The notion of citizen-centred service delivery is a very noble one—you will not hear any dissenters on that here. Going back to the Minister’s opening speech, he gave quite a well-crafted speech, which tried at the end to tie together different strands of the problems that we face in engaging people. What we take issue with is the fact that the questions have been posed, but the Government has not in all cases come up with the necessary answers.

Mynegaf fy nghefnogaeth i’r gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd i’r cynnig. Mae’r syniad o gyflenwi gwasanaethau sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd yn un ardderchog iawn—ni chlywch neb yn anghydweld â hynny yma. Gan fynd yn ôl at araith agoriadol y Gweinidog, rhoddodd araith eithaf crefftus, yr oedd ei diweddglo’n ceisio asio gwahanol elfennau’r problemau yr ydym yn eu hwynebu o ran ymgysylltu â phobl. Yr hyn yr ydym yn ei wrthwynebu yw’r ffaith bod y cwestiynau wedi’u codi, ond nad yw’r Llywodraeth wedi meddwl am yr atebion y mae eu hangen ym mhob achos.

4.40 p.m.

 

We need measures to place citizens at the centre of the service delivery framework. Alliteration aside, it is one of those phrases that do not trip off the tongue, and if you were to stop the average punter on the street and mention 'citizen-centred delivery’, I do not think that he would know what you were talking about, but, of course, he does not need to. Basically, this is about localism. It is about bringing the issues that we deal with here down to the lowest level possible—to the level of county councils and community councils—and it is about decentralising. The notion of decentralisation and the modern concept of devolution are good, in theory, but how do we engage people with the process? Do we engage them simply by setting up boards and having more politicians and tiers of government? There is an argument that that will help engagement, but you have to sell it to the people out there. The local service boards, which the Minister mentioned, are a good idea, in principle, but will they be more than talking shops? The jury is still very much out on that. From my interaction with the embryonic local service board in my area, I know that they have a great deal of potential, but the direction in which we are going in terms of their composition does not provide them with the necessary means of relating to the people.

Mae arnom angen mesurau i roi dinasyddion yng nghanol y fframwaith cyflenwi gwasanaethau. Nid yw’n ymadrodd sydd ar flaen tafod rhywun, a phe byddech yn mynd at y dyn cyffredin yn y stryd ac yn sôn am 'gyflenwi sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd’, nid wyf yn credu y byddai’n gwybod am beth y byddech yn sôn, ond, wrth gwrs, nid oes angen iddo wybod. Mae hyn yn ymwneud, yn y bôn, â bod yn lleol. Mae’n golygu dod â’r materion yr ydym yn delio â hwy yma i lawr at y lefel isaf posibl—at lefel y cynghorau sir a’r cynghorau cymuned—ac mae’n golygu datganoli. Mae’r syniad o ddatganoli a’r cysyniad modern o ddatganoli’n dda, mewn egwyddor, ond sut yr ydym yn cynnwys pobl yn y broses? A ydym yn eu cynnwys dim ond drwy sefydlu byrddau a chael mwy o wleidyddion a haenau o lywodraeth? Mae rhai’n dadlau y bydd hynny’n hybu ymgysylltu, ond rhaid ichi argyhoeddi’r rhai ar lawr gwlad ynghylch hynny. Mae’r byrddau gwasanaethau lleol, y cyfeiriodd y Gweinidog atynt, yn syniad da, mewn egwyddor, ond a fyddant yn amgenach na siopau siarad? Mae’r cwestiwn hwnnw ymhell o fod wedi’i ateb. Yn ôl fy ymwneud â’r bwrdd gwasanaethau lleol sy’n cychwyn yn fy ardal, gwn fod llawer o botensial ynddynt, ond nid yw’r cyfeiriad yr ydym yn mynd iddo o ran eu cyfansoddiad yn eu galluogi i ymgysylltu â’r bobl.

The local health board situation is interesting. The Labour-Liberal Democrat Government of 2003 thought that the boards were a great idea. We were told that they would bring decision-making much closer to the people and that they would engage all the relevant stakeholders. Clearly, something happened between 2003 and 2008. A heck of a lot of money was spent on those boards, and we have not really heard from the Government as to exactly why they were right then but are not right now. We also have not heard how the new local health board structure that is emerging will retain a local element. I think that the health boards are too small, and I can see the rationale behind moving towards having a larger structure. You have had broad support from this side for that, but let us get a little bit of meat on the bones in terms of how we will retain the local element. It seems to me that we spend a lot of time talking about how we are going to engage people, but is the detail there? I would question whether it is.

Mae’r sefyllfa o ran y byrddau iechyd lleol yn ddiddorol. Credai Llywodraeth Llafur a’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn 2003 fod y byrddau’n syniad gwych. Dywedwyd wrthym y byddent yn dod â phenderfyniadau’n agosach o lawer at y bobl ac y byddent yn ymgysylltu â’r holl randdeiliaid perthnasol. Mae’n amlwg bod rhywbeth wedi digwydd rhwng 2003 a 2008. Gwariwyd arian mawr iawn ar y byrddau hynny, ac nid ydym wedi clywed gan y Llywodraeth, mewn gwirionedd, pam yn union yr oeddent yn iawn bryd hynny a pham nad ydynt yn iawn yn awr. Nid ydym wedi clywed ychwaith sut y bydd strwythur newydd y byrddau iechyd lleol sy’n datblygu’n cadw elfen leol. Credaf fod y byrddau iechyd yn rhy fach, a gallaf weld y sail resymegol ar gyfer symud at strwythur mwy. Yr ydych wedi cael cefnogaeth gyffredinol i hynny o’r ochr hon i’r Siambr, ond gadewch inni gael ychydig o eglurhad ynghylch sut y byddwn yn cadw’r elfen leol. Mae’n ymddangos i mi ein bod yn treulio llawer o amser yn sôn am sut y byddwn yn ymgysylltu â phobl, ond a oes manylion? Nid wyf yn sicr a ydynt ar gael.

The Minister mentioned the spatial plan, which, again, is a fantastic idea, in principle. The plan is an important way of recognising the differences between Brecon and Cardiff, for example, which were mentioned earlier, and recognising the huge differences between rural and urban Wales. Those differences must be recognised. However, the Minister has raised the spectre of all these issues without necessarily providing all of the answers.

Soniodd y Gweinidog am y cynllun gofodol sydd, unwaith eto, yn syniad gwych, mewn egwyddor. Mae’r cynllun yn fodd pwysig i gydnabod y gwahaniaethau rhwng Aberhonddu a Chaerdydd, er enghraifft, y cyfeiriwyd atynt yn gynharach, ac i gydnabod y gwahaniaethau aruthrol rhwng Cymru wledig a Chymru drefol. Rhaid cydnabod y gwahaniaethau hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r Gweinidog wedi codi bwgan yr holl faterion hynny heb gynnig yr holl atebion o reidrwydd.

The potential reorganisation of local government has not really figured in this debate until now. If we are going to follow the recommendations of the Beecham report, we cannot avoid its arguments about structure and delivery. I hope that we will be putting citizens at the centre of the system as we move forward and that, as part of that, we will not go against the tenets of the Beecham report. It must be delivery that matters, because that is what the people who elect us care about. Let us not go down the line of centralisation; it is very easy and tempting for us to think about ways in which we can dabble and take more control, but let us not do that.

Ni fu fawr ddim sôn am y posibilrwydd o ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol yn y ddadl hon hyd yma. Os byddwn yn dilyn argymhellion adroddiad Beecham, ni allwn osgoi ei ddadleuon ynghylch strwythur a chyflawni. Yr wyf yn gobeithio y byddwn yn rhoi dinasyddion yng nghanol y system wrth inni symud ymlaen ac, fel rhan o hynny, na fyddwn yn mynd yn groes i ddaliadau adroddiad Beecham. Rhaid rhoi pwys ar gyflawni, gan mai am hynny y mae’r bobl sy’n ein hethol yn poeni. Gadewch inni beidio â dilyn llwybr canoli; mae’n hawdd ac yn atyniadol iawn inni feddwl am ddulliau o ymyrryd a chymryd mwy o reolaeth, ond gadewch inni beidio â gwneud hynny.

The local service boards, in essence, can present an answer, but let us take the lessons from what the people on those boards are saying about where they are not serving us, and feed those areas back into the overall system. There must be real consultation. Members have alluded to the fact that while we talk of consultation, there is not always effective consultation in practice.

Mae’r byrddau gwasanaethau lleol yn gallu cynnig ateb, yn y bôn, ond gadewch inni dderbyn y gwersi yn sgîl yr hyn y mae’r bobl sydd ar y byrddau hynny’n ei ddweud am y meysydd lle nad ydynt yn ein gwasanaethu, a bwydo’r meysydd hynny’n ôl i’r system yn gyffredinol. Rhaid cael ymgynghori gwirioneddol. Mae Aelodau wedi cyfeirio at y ffaith ein bod yn sôn am ymgynghori, ond na cheir ymgynghori effeithiol bob amser mewn gwirionedd.

Janice Gregory: I do not know whether anyone else feels as I do, but I think that the opposition has displayed breathtaking hypocrisy in talking about the choice of this subject for debate, especially when you look at the agenda for tomorrow and see the subject of the Conservative debates and think of the subjects chosen for debate by the Liberal Democrats over the last few weeks. As a result, I am delighted to have the opportunity to comment on the Liberal Democrats’ amendments to this motion. I have huge admiration for the work of county and community councillors of all parties. Indeed, many of my closest friends—as will be the case for many of us here—are community and county borough councillors. Also, my husband is a councillor.

Janice Gregory: Ni wn a oes unrhyw un arall sy’n teimlo fel yr wyf fi, ond credaf fod y gwrthbleidiau wedi amlygu rhagrith syfrdanol wrth sôn am ddewis y testun hwn ar gyfer dadl, yn enwedig os edrychwch ar yr agenda ar gyfer yfory a gweld testun dadleuon y Ceidwadwyr a chofio am y testunau a ddewisodd y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar gyfer eu dadleuon dros yr wythnosau diwethaf. Oherwydd hynny, yr wyf yn falch iawn o gael cyfle i wneud sylwadau am welliannau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’r cynnig hwn. Yr wyf yn edmygu’n fawr waith cynghorwyr sir a chymuned o bob plaid. Yn wir, mae llawer o’m ffrindiau agosaf yn gynghorwyr cymuned a chynghorwyr bwrdeistref sirol—a bydd hynny’n wir am lawer ohonom sydd yma. Hefyd, mae fy ngŵr yn gynghorydd.

I seriously believe, however, that the Liberal Democrats are the worst advocates for giving more power to local government. In Bridgend, Liberal Democrat councillors have slashed investment in primary schools, leaving the county borough with some of the poorest funded schools in Wales. They have quadrupled charges for elderly people who attend day centres, and they have plotted to scrap meals on wheels. They have chopped the road safety budget by a third and cut the essential road maintenance budget. They have an abysmal record on recycling, Bridgend being among the worst in Wales for its recycling record.

Credaf o ddifrif, fodd bynnag, mai’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yw’r rhai gwaethaf i siarad dros roi mwy o rym i lywodraeth leol. Ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, mae cynghorwyr y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol wedi cwtogi buddsoddiad mewn ysgolion cynradd yn aruthrol, nes bod gan y fwrdeistref sirol rai o’r ysgolion tlotaf yng Nghymru. Maent wedi cynyddu bedair gwaith y tâl a godir ar yr henoed am fynychu canolfannau dydd, ac wedi cynllwynio i ddiddymu pryd ar glud. Maent wedi cwtogi un rhan o dair o gyllideb diogelwch y ffyrdd ac wedi torri’r gyllideb gwaith cynnal ffyrdd hanfodol. Mae ganddynt record echrydus o ran ailgylchu; mae Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr ymysg y gwaethaf yng Nghymru o ran ailgylchu.

However, to be fair, Bridgend Liberals are not uniquely incompetent and uncaring. In Cardiff, the Liberal Democrats, given powers by the Labour Government to fight crime and disorder, have failed to impose a single anti-social behaviour order, and have gated not one alley.

Fodd bynnag, a bod yn deg, nid yw Rhyddfrydwyr Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn unigryw yn eu hanallu a’u diffyg gofal. Yng Nghaerdydd, mae’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, ar ôl cael pwerau gan y Llywodraeth Lafur i ymladd yn erbyn troseddu ac anhrefn, heb roi dim un gorchymyn ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol, a heb osod giât ar ddim un ali.

Jenny Randerson: Will you give way?

Jenny Randerson: A wnewch ildio?

Janice Gregory: No. [Interruption.]

Janice Gregory: Na wnaf. [Torri ar draws.]

The Presiding Officer: Order. I do not believe that Janice Gregory is giving way.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Nid wyf yn credu bod Janice Gregory yn ildio.

Janice Gregory: In Swansea, they promised to build a new leisure centre, but instead built an aquapark which, I understand, charges £7 a head, does not offer free swimming for children or older people and still costs council tax payers £40 a head.

Janice Gregory: Yn Abertawe, rhoesant addewid yr adeiladent ganolfan hamdden newydd, ond yn lle hynny adeiladwyd parc dŵr sydd, yn ôl a ddeallaf, yn codi tâl o £7 y pen, nid yw’n cynnig nofio am ddim i blant na phobl hŷn ac mae’n dal i gostio £40 y pen i dalwyr y dreth gyngor.

In Wrexham, they imposed an administration charge of £2 for disabled parking permits, while failing to employ sufficient neighbourhood wardens to combat anti-social behaviour. Go on, Jenny.

Yn Wrecsam, maent wedi codi tâl gweinyddu o £2 am drwyddedau parcio i’r anabl, ond heb lwyddo i gyflogi digon o wardeniaid cymdogaeth i ymladd yn erbyn ymddygiad gwrthgymdeithasol. Ymlaen â chi, Jenny.

Jenny Randerson: You are wrong on the figure for ASBOs—it is 23, actually.

Jenny Randerson: Yr ydych yn anghywir gyda’ch ffigur am ASBOS—mae’n 23, a dweud y gwir.

Janice Gregory: Twenty three? I am impressed. Twenty three in Cardiff, in a city of that size and the capital city of Wales. But still, not one alley has been gated.

Janice Gregory: Dau ddeg tri? Yr wyf yn edmygus. Dau ddeg tri yng Nghaerdydd, mewn dinas o’r maint hwnnw, a hithau’n brifddinas Cymru. Ond eto, nid oes giât wedi’i gosod ar ddim un ali.

An important and serious debate is to be had— [Interruption.] Go on.

Mae dadl bwysig a difrifol—[Torri ar draws.] Ewch yn eich blaen.

Jenny Randerson: Some 60 alleys have been gated. Your brief is wrong.

Jenny Randerson: Mae giatiau wedi’u gosod ar ryw 60 ali. Mae eich gwybodaeth yn anghywir.

Janice Gregory: You know, I am speechless, for once in my life. We are talking about the capital city of Wales, and if you can stand up and be proud of your record there, I am absolutely amazed, as, I am sure, will the people of Cardiff be on Thursday.

Janice Gregory: Wyddoch chi, ni wn beth i’w ddweud, am unwaith yn fy mywyd. Yr ydym yn sôn am brifddinas Cymru, ac os gallwch sefyll ar eich traed ac ymfalchïo yn eich record yno, yr wyf wedi fy syfrdanu’n llwyr, fel y bydd pobl Caerdydd ddydd Iau, yr wyf yn siŵr.

On a more serious note, there is a debate to be had on the proper powers in local government, but the Liberal Democrats, with their appalling record of neglect, tight-fistedness and cowardice on crime, are not the party to lead that debate. Let us see Liberal Democrat councillors make proper use of the powers they have before their Assembly Members start preaching to the rest of us.

Ar nodyn mwy difrifol, mae dadl i’w chynnal ar y pwerau priodol mewn llywodraeth leol, ond nid y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, gyda’u record echrydus o esgeulustod, cybydd-dod a llwfrdra yn wyneb troseddu, yw’r blaid i arwain y ddadl honno. Gadewch inni weld cynghorwyr y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yn gwneud defnydd priodol o’r pwerau sydd ganddynt cyn i’w Haelodau Cynulliad ddechrau pregethu wrth y gweddill ohonom.

Alun Ffred Jones: Rhag ofn inni anghofio, mae’r ddadl hon yn sôn am wasanaeth sy’n canolbwyntio ar y dinesydd. Mae’n un o’r pethau hynny sy’n haws dweud na gwneud. Pa ymdrechion bynnag a wneir yn y maes hwn, mae un anhawster sylfaenol o safbwynt llywodraeth leol, a’r ariannu yw hwnnw. Gydag 80 y cant o arian llywodraeth leol yn dod o’r canol, a dim ond 20 y cant yn cael ei godi’n lleol, yn amlach na pheidio, mae’n anodd iawn gweld y berthynas rhwng lefel y dreth ac ansawdd y gwasanaethau. Tra bydd hynny’n parhau, bydd yn anodd i bobl unigol ddeall a gwerthuso’r gwasanaethau y maent yn eu cael oddi wrth eu cynghorwyr a’r cynghorau.

Alun Ffred Jones: Lest we forget, this debate is about services that are citizen focused. It is one of those things that is easier said than done. Whatever efforts we make in this field, there is one fundamental difficulty in relation to local government, and that is funding. With 80 per cent of local government funding being provided from the centre, and only 20 per cent being generated locally, more often than not, it is difficult for people to see the connection between the level of taxation and the quality of the services. While that is the case, it will be difficult for individuals to understand and evaluate the services that they receive from their councillors and councils.

Soniodd y Gweinidog yn ei araith agoriadol am roi hawliau i ddinasyddion a chynyddu cyfleoedd i’r rhai difreintiedig fel rhan o ethos y Llywodraeth hon, ac yr wyf yn falch o’i gefnogi yn hynny. Yr unig beth a ychwanegwn yw’r angen i sicrhau bod y cyfleoedd hynny ar gael yn gyson ar draws Cymru, yn y Gymru wledig a’r Gymru drefol, mewn dinas, tref a phentref. Os nad yw hynny’n wir, byddwn yn gwneud cam â’n pobl ein hunain.

In his opening speech, the Minister talked about giving rights to citizens and increasing the number of opportunities for the disadvantaged as part of the Government’s ethos, and I am pleased to support him in that. All that I would add to that is the need to ensure that those opportunities are provided consistently throughout Wales, in rural and urban Wales alike, in cities, towns and villages. If that is not the case, we will be failing our own people.

Yr wyf am ganolbwyntio ar ddau faes, gan ein bod yn sôn am ddinasyddion a datganoli hawliau. Y cyntaf yw’r trydydd sector, sef yr enw newydd ar y sector gwirfoddol. Mae hwn yn faes anodd i Lywodraeth a llywodraeth leol. Nid yw cynghorau yn dda wrth ddelio â’r sector gwirfoddol, ac mae rhesymau da dros hynny, gan fod cynghorwyr yn chwilio am barhad a sicrwydd mewn gwasanaethau. A sôn am fy ardal i, mae enghreifftiau clodwiw i’w cael yng Ngwynedd lle mae’r trydydd sector yn gwneud cyfraniad ardderchog i helpu’r cyngor a hefyd ei gymunedau. Yr wyf yn meddwl am Antur Waunfawr a Menter Fachwen yn ardal Arfon, ac y mae enghreifftiau eraill i’w cael yng ngweddill y sir, gan gynnwys Seren Cyf. ym Mlaenau Ffestiniog, ond nid oes gennyf hawl i siarad am y rheini.

I wish to concentrate on two areas, given that we talking about citizens and the devolution of rights. The first is the third sector, which is the new name for the voluntary sector. This is a difficult area for Government and local government. Councils are not effective at dealing with the voluntary sector, and there are good reasons for that, given that councillors seek the continuity and security of services. To talk about my own area, there are excellent examples to be found in Gwynedd, where the third sector makes an excellent contribution in assisting the council as well as its own communities. I am referring to Antur Waunfawr and Menter Fachwen in the Arfon area, but there are also other examples to be found in the rest of the county, including Seren Ltd in Blaenau Ffestiniog, but I am not allowed to talk about those.

4.50 p.m.

 

Yn achos Antur Waunfawr, os ydym yn sôn am unigolion, mae’n werth talu teyrnged i’r diweddar Gwyn Davies a symbylodd Antur Waunfawr. Gwelodd anghenion ei fab ei hun a phlant a phobl ifanc oedd ag anableddau dysgu, a gweld eu bod yn gwastraffu eu hunain yn aml iawn gan nad oedd gwaith ganddynt, ac felly, sefydlodd yr antur honno. Bellach, mae’r antur wedi symud i ffwrdd oddi wrth ddibyniaeth ar grantiau i weithredu cytundebau masnachol yn y maes ailgylchu ac yn y blaen. Mae angen i ni greu’r ymddiriedaeth honno rhwng gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a’r sector gwirfoddol—[Torri ar draws.] Diolch yn fawr, Rhodri Glyn. Os ydych am dorri am fy nhraws i, cewch wneud hynny.

In the case of Antur Waunfawr, if we are talking about individuals, it is worth paying tribute to the late Gwyn Davies, who was the driving force behind Antur Waunfawr. He saw the needs of his own son, and the children and young people who had learning disabilities, and saw that, very often, they were wasting their lives as they had no work, and so he set up that venture. It has now moved away from a dependence on grants to being driven by commercial contracts in the area of recycling and so on. We need to create that trust between public services and the voluntary sector—[Interruption.] Thank you very much, Rhodri Glyn. If you want to intervene, you may.

Y Llywydd: Trefn. Ni chaiff dorri ar draws.

The Presiding Officer: Order. He may not.

Alun Ffred Jones: Mae angen i ni greu yr ymddiriedaeth honno er mwyn i ni allu rhoi hyder i unigolion a chymdeithasau a’u cael i weithio drostynt eu hunain, yn hytrach na’n bod ni bob amser yn gwneud rhywbeth ar eu rhan. Dyna’r gyfrinach, ond, fel yr wyf wedi dweud, nid yw’n hawdd.

Alun Ffred Jones: We need to create that trust between public services and the voluntary sector to give individuals and societies confidence and to get them to work for themselves, rather than our always doing things on their behalf. That is the secret, but, as I have said, it is not easy.

Yr ydym yn sôn am roi grym i unigolion ac un o’r enghreifftiau o hynny sydd wedi ei thrafod yn aml yn y Siambr yw swyddfeydd post. Yr ydym yn dweud mor bwysig ydynt o ran cynnal ein cymunedau, ac mae Aelodau pob plaid yn dweud eu bod o blaid cynnal swyddfeydd post. Eto, ychydig iawn o gynghorau Cymru sy’n defnyddio’r swyddfeydd post—ychydig iawn o ddefnydd a wneir ohonynt gan y Llywodraeth ganolog, a dweud y gwir. Er enghraifft, ychydig iawn o gynghorau Cymru sydd â chardiau talu y gall unigolion eu defnyddio i dalu’r rhent neu’r dreth gyngor yn y swyddfa bost. Mae rheswm dros hynny wrth gwrs, sef bod ffi am wneud hynny, a’i bod yn talu’n well i gynghorau gasglu’r arian yn uniongyrchol os oes modd. Dyna enghraifft o wasanaeth cyhoeddus sydd o fudd i’r unigolyn a’r trethdalwr yn peidio â chael ei weithredu gan gynghorau. Nid wyf yn beio cynghorau, ond yr wyf yn credu os ydym fel gwleidyddion, ar lefel genedlaethol neu leol, yn dadlau o blaid swyddfeydd post, rhaid i ni eu defnyddio. Os nad yw’r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn rhoi modd i unigolion ddefnyddio’r swyddfeydd post hynny a chreu incwm, nid yw’n ddim ond siarad gwag.

We are talking about empowering individuals, and one relevant example in that regard that is often discussed in the Chamber is post offices. We all say how important they are to sustain our communities, and Members of every party state that they are in favour of supporting post offices. However, very few Welsh councils use post offices—very little use is made of them by central Government, to tell the truth. For instance, the number of councils in Wales that have payment cards that people can use to pay their rent or their council tax in a post office is few and far between. There is a reason for that, of course, namely that a fee is charged for doing so, and so it pays for councils to collect the money directly, if possible. That is an example of a public service that benefits the individual and the taxpayer but that is not used by councils. I do not blame councils for that, but I feel that if we, as politicians, on a national or a local level, plead the case for keeping post offices open, we must make use of them. If the public services do not provide a means for individuals to use their post offices and for them to generate an income, ours are nothing but empty words.

I gloi, wrth sôn am ddatganoli, mae’r blaid hon wedi sefyll yn gryf ar hyd y blynyddoedd o blaid datganoli grym o Lundain i Gymru. Yr ydym hefyd yn credu mewn datganoli pŵer o Gaerdydd allan i’n cynghorau, ond nid dyna lle ddylai stopio. Rhaid i ni hefyd ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o roi grym a lle i ddygnwch a gallu unigolion o fewn y gymdeithas i siarad ac i weithredu drostynt eu hunain. Mae’n hawdd ei ddweud ac yn anodd iawn ei wneud, ond dyna ddylai fod yn nod inni.

To conclude, in talking about devolution, over the years, this party has stood firmly in favour of the devolution of power from London to Wales. We also believe in devolving power from Cardiff out to our councils, but it should not end there. We must also find ways of empowering and giving a place to the ability and determination of individuals in society to speak up for and to take action for themselves. That is easy to say, but hard to do, but that should be our goal.

The Minister for Finance and Public Service Delivery (Andrew Davies): I thank Members who have contributed to the debate this afternoon. There have been a few very thoughtful contributions on this important issue. It has often been said that the challenge for Government in the twenty-first century is to improve the quality of public service delivery. It is certainly a big challenge for us in Wales.

Y Gweinidog dros Gyllid a Chyflenwi Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus (Andrew Davies): Diolch i’r Aelodau sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Cafwyd ambell gyfraniad meddylgar iawn ar y pwnc pwysig hwn. Mae wedi’i ddweud yn aml mai’r her i Lywodraeth yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain yw gwella ansawdd cyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Yn sicr mae’n her fawr i ni yng Nghymru.

There has been a significant improvement in the design and the delivery of a range of public services across Wales, and there have also been significant developments in terms of citizen engagement. Bethan Jenkins made reference to that in relation to this institution, through the work of the Petitions Committee and the use of the old chamber as a debating chamber for young people. That is obviously building on the work that we have developed, as an Assembly Government, in terms of engaging young people through the Funky Dragon organisation.

Gwelwyd gwelliant sylweddol o ran cynllunio a chyflwyno amrediad o wasanaethau cyhoeddus ledled Cymru, a chafwyd datblygiadau arwyddocaol hefyd o ran sicrhau cyfranogiad dinasyddion. Cyfeiriodd Bethan Jenkins at hynny mewn perthynas â’r sefydliad hwn, drwy waith y Pwyllgor Deisebau a defnyddio’r hen siambr fel siambr ddadlau i bobl ifanc. Mae hynny’n amlwg yn adeiladu ar y gwaith yr ydym wedi’i ddatblygu, fel Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, o ran hybu cyfranogiad pobl ifanc drwy sefydliad y Ddraig Ffynci.

In a modern and increasingly pluralistic society, the levels of authority and multiple levels of government mean that there are different issues of accountability. I have always held strongly to the view that, whether they are made in the public sector or the private sector, decisions that are accountable and transparent are, by their nature, better decisions. The challenge for all of us involved in public service delivery in Wales is not only the delivery of those services, but to ensure that they are scrutinised. Too often, the services that we provide, and that we fund as a Government, are variable in quality. That is unacceptable, and I have referred to it as a postcode lottery.

Mewn cymdeithas fodern a mwyfwy amryfath, mae lefelau awdurdod a lefelau lluosog llywodraeth yn golygu bod gwahanol gwestiynau ynghylch atebolrwydd. Yr wyf bob amser wedi bod yn gryf o’r farn bod penderfyniadau sydd yn atebol ac yn dryloyw, boed y rheini’n rhai a wneir yn y sector cyhoeddus neu’r sector preifat, wrth natur yn benderfyniadau gwell. Yr her i bawb ohonom sy’n ymwneud â chyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yw nid yn unig cyflenwi’r gwasanaethau hynny, ond sicrhau hefyd fod craffu arnynt. Yn rhy aml, mae’r gwasanaethau a ddarparwn, ac a ariannwn fel Llywodraeth, yn amrywiol eu hansawdd. Mae hynny’n annerbyniol, ac yr wyf wedi cyfeirio at hynny fel loteri cod post.

There have been many references to disabled children this afternoon, but why is it that, in terms of the delivery of the disabled facilities grant, the best-performing local authority in Wales delivers it in 318 days—not far off a year—whereas the worst-performing local authority delivers it in 1,112 days, which is nearly three years. I am sure that my concerns are shared by all Members who have had constituents die before the disabled facilities grant has been facilitated.

Cafwyd sawl cyfeiriad at blant anabl y prynhawn yma, ond pam, o ran darparu’r grant cyfleusterau i’r anabl, y mae’r awdurdod lleol sy’n perfformio orau yng Nghymru’n ei ddarparu mewn 318 diwrnod—yn agos at flwyddyn—tra bod yr awdurdod lleol sy’n perfformio waethaf yn ei ddarparu mewn 1,112 o ddyddiau, sef tair blynedd bron? Yr wyf yn siŵr bod fy mhryderon yn rhai sydd gan bob Aelod sydd ag etholwyr wedi marw cyn i’r grant cyfleusterau i’r anabl gael ei roi.

Similarly, why is it that the best-performing local authority has 0.5 per cent of its road network in poor condition, whereas the worst-performing local authority has nearly one third of its road network in poor condition? I hear the constant bleat of the Liberal Democrats about localism, as if localism somehow creates a perfect world. I agree with decisions being made locally when that results in consistently high-quality public services. However, that is not the case, and we have a postcode lottery, so we need to ensure that the delivery of our services is consistently high quality.

Yn yr un modd, pam mae gan yr awdurdod lleol sy’n perfformio orau 0.5 y cant o’i rwydwaith ffyrdd mewn cyflwr gwael, tra bod bron traean rhwydwaith ffyrdd yr awdurdod lleol sy’n perfformio waethaf mewn cyflwr gwael? Clywaf frefu diflino’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ynghylch gwneud pethau’n lleol, fel pe bai gwneud pethau’n lleol rywsut yn creu byd perffaith. Cytunaf y dylid gwneud penderfyniadau’n lleol pan fydd hynny’n arwain at wasanaethau cyhoeddus o ansawdd uchel yn gyson. Fodd bynnag, nid felly y mae, ac mae gennym loteri cod post, felly mae angen inni sicrhau bod cyflenwi ein gwasanaethau o ansawdd uchel yn gyson.

That is why we must engage with the citizen, and follow the seven principles of citizen governance. I agree that that phrase does not trip off the tongue, but nevertheless, these are fundamental principles about how we engage with our citizens in the design and delivery of the services that we as a Government fund and, in many cases, deliver. That should also apply where services are delivered by a third party on our behalf, whether it is local government, the third sector or the private sector. It is about accountability and greater transparency, and that is why the seven principles are an important lever for us as a Government across the whole of public service delivery: it is essential that the voice of the citizen is heard. Transparency and accountability will be varied in a society like ours, with different levels of Government and a pluralistic society. It is my belief that we will only be able to say that we are truly delivering the services that citizens need when we take them into account in the design, delivery and evaluation of those services.

Dyna pam y mae’n rhaid inni ymgysylltu â’r dinesydd, a dilyn saith egwyddor dinasyddion yn llywodraethu. Cytunaf nad yw’r ymadrodd hwnnw ar flaen tafod rhywun, ond serch hynny, mae’r rhain yn egwyddorion sylfaenol ynghylch sut yr ymgysylltwn â’n dinasyddion wrth gynllunio a chyflenwi’r gwasanaethau yr ydym ni fel Llywodraeth yn eu hariannu ac, mewn sawl achos, yn eu cyflenwi. Dylai hynny fod yn wir hefyd lle y cyflenwir gwasanaethau gan drydydd parti ar ein rhan, boed hynny’n llywodraeth leol, y trydydd sector neu’r sector preifat. Mae a wnelo hyn ag atebolrwydd a mwy o dryloywder, a dyna pam y mae’r saith egwyddor yn arf pwysig i ni fel Llywodraeth ar draws holl sbectrwm cyflenwi gwasanaethau cyhoeddus: mae’n hanfodol i lais y dinesydd gael ei glywed. Bydd tryloywder ac atebolrwydd yn amrywio mewn cymdeithas fel ein cymdeithas ni, gyda gwahanol lefelau o lywodraeth a chymdeithas amryfath. Fy nghred i yw mai dim ond pan gymerwn ein dinasyddion i ystyriaeth wrth gynllunio, cyflenwi a gwerthuso’r gwasanaethau y mae arnynt eu hangen y gallwn ddweud ein bod yn cyflenwi’r gwasanaethau hynny mewn gwirionedd.

Y Llywydd: Y cynnig yw ein bod yn cytuno â’r gwelliant cyntaf. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod, felly awn ymlaen i bleidleisio.

The Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the first amendment. Are there any objections? I see that there are, and therefore I call for a vote.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM3922: O blaid 8, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 27.
Amendment 1 to NDM3922: For 8, Abstain 0, Against 27.

Y Cofnod

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Davies, Paul
German, Michael
Isherwood, Mark
Melding, David
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Randerson, Jenny
Williams, Kirsty

Andrews, Leighton
Barrett, Lorraine
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davidson, Jane
Davies, Andrew
Davies, Jocelyn
Evans, Nerys
Gibbons, Brian
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hutt, Jane
James, Irene
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Elin
Jones, Gareth
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Law, Trish
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Rhodri
Sargeant, Carl
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.

 

Gwelliant 2 i NDM3922: O blaid 9, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 28.
Amendment 2 to NDM3922: For 9, Abstain 0, Against 28.

Y Cofnod

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Davies, Paul
German, Michael
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Melding, David
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Randerson, Jenny
Williams, Kirsty

Andrews, Leighton
Barrett, Lorraine
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davidson, Jane
Davies, Andrew
Davies, Jocelyn
Evans, Nerys
Gibbons, Brian
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hutt, Jane
James, Irene
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Gareth
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Law, Trish
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Rhodri
Sargeant, Carl
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.

 

Gwelliant 3 i NDM3922: O blaid 9, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 28.
Amendment 3 to NDM3922: For 9, Abstain 0, Against 28.

Y Cofnod

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Davies, Paul
German, Michael
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Melding, David
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Randerson, Jenny
Williams, Kirsty

Andrews, Leighton
Barrett, Lorraine
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davidson, Jane
Davies, Andrew
Davies, Jocelyn
Evans, Nerys
Gibbons, Brian
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hutt, Jane
James, Irene
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Gareth
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Law, Trish
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Rhodri
Sargeant, Carl
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.
Amendment defeated.

 

Cynnig (NDM3922): O blaid 27, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 9.
Motion (NDM3922): For 27, Abstain 0, Against 9.

Y Cofnod

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:
The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:
The following Members voted against:

Andrews, Leighton
Barrett, Lorraine
Chapman, Christine
Cuthbert, Jeff
Davidson, Jane
Davies, Andrew
Davies, Jocelyn
Evans, Nerys
Gibbons, Brian
Gregory, Janice
Griffiths, John
Griffiths, Lesley
Hutt, Jane
James, Irene
Jenkins, Bethan
Jones, Alun Ffred
Jones, Ann
Jones, Carwyn
Jones, Elin
Jones, Ieuan Wyn
Law, Trish
Lewis, Huw
Mewies, Sandy
Morgan, Rhodri
Sargeant, Carl
Thomas, Gwenda
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn

Davies, Paul
German, Michael
Graham, William
Isherwood, Mark
Melding, David
Millar, Darren
Ramsay, Nick
Randerson, Jenny
Williams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion carried.

 

Y Llywydd: Dyna ddiwedd ein trafodion am heddiw.

The Presiding Officer: That concludes our proceedings for today.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 5 p.m.
The meeting ended at 5 p.m.

Aelodau a’u Pleidiau

Members and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur - Labour)
Asghar, Mohammad (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur - Labour)
Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru - Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru - Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru - Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Butler, Rosemary (Llafur - Labour)
Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Chapman, Christine (Llafur - Labour)
Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur - Labour)
Davidson, Jane (Llafur - Labour)
Davies, Alun (Llafur - Labour)
Davies, Andrew (Llafur - Labour)
Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru - Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Gregory, Janice (Llafur - Labour)
Griffiths, John (Llafur - Labour)
Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur - Labour)
Gibbons, Brian (Llafur - Labour)
Hart, Edwina (Llafur - Labour)
Hutt, Jane (Llafur - Labour)
Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
James, Irene (Llafur - Labour)
Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Jones, Ann (Llafur - Labour)
Jones, Carwyn (Llafur - Labour)
Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Law, Trish (Annibynnol - Independent)
Lewis, Huw (Llafur - Labour)
Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Lloyd, Val (Llafur - Labour)
Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Mewies, Sandy (Llafur - Labour)
Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur - Labour)
Neagle, Lynne (Llafur - Labour)
Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru - Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Sargeant, Carl (Llafur - Labour)
Sinclair, Karen (Llafur - Labour)
Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur - Labour)
Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)
Watson, Joyce (Llafur - Labour)
Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Welsh Conservatives)
Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru - Welsh Liberal Democrats)
Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru - The Party of Wales)



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